Episode 009: Kayla Henry-Griffin

Show Notes

This week’s show features emerging conservation professional Kayla Henry-Griffin, currently in their final year of graduate studies at NYU. Tune in to hear about Kayla’s journey from optics and physics to their current research around the intersection of Black and queer community archive practices and video game preservation.

Links from the conversation with Kayla
> Kayla's website: https://k-d-m-t.com/
> NYU MIAP program: https://tisch.nyu.edu/cinema-studies/miap/

Join the conversation:
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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I sit down with artists, collectors, curators, conservators, all kinds of people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology. 

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Now in the tagline for the podcast each week, I say that we're talking to people that are shaping the past, present and future of our in technology, and so far, we've talked to a lot of pioneers, people that have really shaped the foundation of the field, but you know, who's going to be shaping the future of it? It's the up and coming generation of professionals, and I am so excited for this week's conversation because this week's guest, Kayla Henry-Griffin is just one of those people, currently in their second and final year of NYU's moving image, archiving and preservation program. In the conversations we've had so far on the show with pioneers in the field, we've heard about their long and winding paths and origin stories. So today's conversation is so special as it's the first moment where we're chatting with someone who is in the midst of those early phases of their journey. True to a pattern that we've heard emerging in these stories. Kayla's story begins with somewhat unlikely origins in their case as a science geek. 

[00:02:24] Kayla: Growing up I thought to myself, I will become, a lawyer or like a scientist, things of that nature. I just grew up thinking I was going to be one of those things. I was in the sciences since high school, like always in biology classes, chemistry classes. My undergraduate degree is actually in photography and optics, which I created in my own major in school. Just to have a mix between art and physics. And right now, I don't know if I'm using any of that right now, but that's totally fine. It wasn't until I think sophomore year of college that I went to a physics conference actually in Lincoln, Nebraska, and I got a little bit bored of the lectures and workshops, all the talks actually. And so I went to one of the museums there. And I went with someone I met at the conference and we were just talking about art and everything.

And they were telling me about oh, there's this field called art conservation. I was like, oh, I never heard of that. So I was very interested in that, just due to the fact that it sounded like art and science blended together to make the art world and the science world, support each other.

I was hoping that art conservation is this field where art and science can support each other and help each other out to further advance the fields. So I really looked into it for a while and sophomore year, I was still wasn't sure what I was going to do with my major and it was junior year when I met an art conservator. She came to our college and she just talked about, her job, how she got there, things of that sort.

Her specialty was paintings. I believe she was at SF MoMA. I'm not sure if she's still there and I can not remember her name. I feel so bad about that.

But it was so interesting, like how she talked about, what she did for a living. I was like, wow, I can definitely get into this. At that time I told myself I will be an art conservator. I have to work on this. But it was during junior year. I've already had my classes picked out for junior year and senior year.

Which meant that I didn't have any time to take the chemistry requirements for art conservation. So I did take chemistry after undergraduate. All my classes were either physics, art or philosophy. 

During my time in Omaha, Nebraska I had the great opportunity to intern at their conservation center there. So before being interested in time-based media, before I knew what time-based media conservation was, I was very interested in, works on paper. So I believed that I was going to be a paper conservator.

I thought of it as a pre-program internship because I was hoping to gain the experience in order to apply for program. So I worked there for maybe two and a half years, I believe this is after undergrad. 

I did not know that I was going to be really interested in time-based media conservation, but there was something in the back of my head that always questioned what are we going to do about, TVs and where are we going to do about technology? How are we going to preserve that but I never thought that was a thing that people really thought about. 

I think I just stumbled upon a workshop that was happening Texas at the time by the Software Preservation Network, SPN. It was software emulation and preservation workshop, which I thought that was very interesting. I was like, wow, this is great. I don't know anything about emulation or software, but I'm very interested to see where this goes. But then I always change my mind like, oh, paper or time-based media. Why can't I do both.

So I was able to go, which was great. It was eye opening, that's cliche to say, but it was very eyeopening. I had this idea of oh, this is how you preserve things. But it was totally different from what I expected and even though I was very new to it and a lot of the information they gave me went over my head, it was a great opportunity to meet people who were thinking about these things and people who were in the field and in, the community. I talked to Ethan Gates who actually told me about MIAP. 

Moving Image, Archiving and Preservation is a program at NYU that focuses on archiving film, digital video, analog video and anything that's multimedia works. It's a two year program very intensive which is great. I find that like really amazing and challenging.

[00:07:35] Ben: Is this a master's program? 

[00:07:36] Kayla: yes, it is a master's program. 

[00:07:38] Ben: It sounds like it's very interdisciplinary. What are some of the jobs that people will go on to do from a program like that?

[00:07:45] Kayla: A lot of jobs, which is great. That's, it's wonderful that they help you with that?

as well. Just getting into positions that are not just only a film archivist, but maybe also working for Library of Congress. And maybe even working at a museum, there is just a wide range of fields you could go into.

So there's museums, there are archives or libraries. I've been really interested in trying to delve into all those different spaces and how they work. And MIAP helps you and supports you with, this is how a library works, this is how a museum works, this is how archives work in terms of moving image, archiving and preservation. 

But anyway, I told Ethan, I was thinking of going into time-based media conservation. Like I made that decision during the workshop that I was like, I'm going into time-based media conservation. I don't want to do anything else. Ethan told me about the MIAP program and I was like, wow, I didn't know that existed. I should look into it. And then I also talked to someone from the Strong Museum of Play who was an archivist and they said that they had someone on their team who worked with video games, like preserving video games. And my jaw dropped.

It was like video games. Like I can do that, like, oh, that was probably the best thing, like the best thing I've heard in a while in a long time, because I am in love with video games, everything about video games and the idea of preserving video games was like, wow, if I can do this for a living, or if I can preserve a video game, I will be set for life. I felt as if I don't want to say my duty to preserve video games, but I think it's super important. 

[00:09:46] Ben: In terms of the workshop what were they showing you that you were seeing for the first time, in terms of were they doing like emulation demos live and like what did that, yeah, just what did that look like?

[00:09:56] Kayla: They were doing emulation demos live, which was very new to me. They had us like in groups and we demoed different emulators together within the group. And I felt as if I couldn't put much effort into it, cause I wasn't sure what I was doing, but I was looking at other people doing it and all these questions came up.

And it seemed very community oriented. And when I say that, I mean that people were basically doing trial and error and learning from mistakes and like saying, oh, maybe we should do it this way. Things of that sort. And just having a discussion about what is the best thing to do when it comes to using the emulators which really stuck with me because coming from the sciences I never really had that feeling of community. I was afraid to ask questions all the time things of that sort. I don't know if it was just due to the fact of, where I went to school at and who my peers were, but it was a lot to handle to be honest and I didn't realize, that I really needed to have people around me who supported me and who challenged me in a, in a positive way to further advance my knowledge of physics or anything of that sort.

And, being in that community, in that workshop, I learned very quickly that it's great to have people to support you, to have people around you who challenge you, who support your ideas and your endeavors. And I saw that really vividly during this workshop and that, that's what stuck with me during that day. 

I find that in the archive field and in the conservation field in general, the cultural heritage field that everyone is helping each other out and it's such a beautiful thing. People are like listening to each other. People are sharing ideas, which I think that's like amazing. Like I thoroughly enjoy being in this field of cultural heritage.

 So, I did apply for the MIAP program. I was still interested in applying for NYU since they had time-based media conservation but due you my credits, I wasn't able to apply that year. I still had to take, I think, one or two art history courses. I knew what my passions were, but I have multiple passions which is very difficult when just applying for graduate school.

So I applied for the MIAP program, I applied for North Umbria so I could become a paper conservator. I also was interested in archives, of course and I applied for University of Wisconsin, Madison to be part of their library, information, sciences program. So I applied to those three programs and even when submitting the applications, I was still unsure where I wanted to be. 

I did get in to all three and during the next year this was when COVID happened. I was very interested in going to New York and going to NYU. I also went to visit the MIAP program before COVID happened. That visit really helped me make my decision. If I get into NYU, I will go to NYU. So I just waited for that day and the acceptance letter came in, I start crying. I was like, yes, this is great. But yeah I got the letter during the pandemic. It was like at the beginning of the pandemic. 

So the first semester it was hybrid. We went in for two classes and then our other classes were remote and then the second semester was all remote, but of course, during the pandemic, there were so many regulations and whatnot.

It was difficult for both me, my cohort and for the professors. It's difficult for everyone of course. 

[00:14:15] Ben: That is such a unique way to start off your graduate education.

And you moved halfway across the country.

[00:14:26] Kayla: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:14:29] Ben: You just started your second year, so you're in the thick of beginning to work on your thesis. Like you're like at the ideation stage, I would imagine. 

[00:14:38] Kayla: I am. I started thinking about my thesis project sometime in the spring and I had two ideas. One idea was, working with a artist that I worked with during one of my classes where I help make a collection assessment and a preservation plan for two of his artworks. So I thought of continuing that just because I really enjoyed working with him and I enjoyed, the questions I had during creating that collection assessment. So that was one idea I had in mind. 

The other idea was that I thought of creating a preservation plan for a video game. I've been playing this game for maybe two or three years. It's like an adventure role-playing game where I don't know if you've heard of it Fire Emblem Three Houses. 

 It's part of the franchise Fire Emblem that was created in Japan. Their first game was in 1993 or 1995 but this is one of their most recent games that came out. Basically you have three routes. You have the Golden Deer House, you have the Blue Line House and you have the Black Eagles House.

And so the atmosphere, the, setting is basically you become a monastery teacher to these students. You teach them, battle tactics. 

There's texts, interaction, you explore different spaces, then you go out to battle and you pick and choose your players or characters to play in battle. That's where the teaching comes in, where you're teaching them either lancing or magic, or things of that sort. 

It's very fantasy which I never thought I would get into the game because I'm not into that kind of fantasy role playing game, I don't know. Far emblem, three houses has been part of my life. I can say that. I talk about this game a lot with my friends and I tell them, you need to buy this game. It's just something about the storylines that just drags you in and you can't like stop, watching the same story over and over again. I've played over 200 hours in this game. Compared to the other games I've played, I've played maybe 50 hours or 70 hours, but this game it's over 200 hours. So it's a lot for me. 

So when applying for MIAP I discussed in my application essay that, I'm really interested in preserving video games. Fire Emblem has this storyline that I really want to see preserved because it really depends on your choices. There's cut scenes of other stories within the main story. It's just interesting because it seems complex knowing that I just wonder, like, how do you preserve stories within video games when they're that complex? When it depends on your choices, it depends on the experience that you're having. I don't know. It's just something about Fire Emblem, where the story is so big and so complex that it needs some intention when it comes to preserving it. 

It changed my whole perspective about, video games. I was like, wow, if a video game can do this to me I don't know. I've never found another game like it where I can invest 200 plus hours into it where I'm still engaged with it and everything. You have the chance to replay that storyline. I guess I was heartbroken when I tried to play the game again and I just didn't get the same experience as when I first played it. That's another thing, this whole idea of experience, what was the experience like playing the game when it first came out?

What was the experience like when the game has been out for six months, nine months, a whole year, things of that sort what is the experience like for someone who didn't buy the game when it first came out, but bought it and start playing it two years later. There's also different versions for the game.

Someone who bought the game two years later, might not have the same experience or the same version as the first version, when it first came out, they've changed a few things, not too much, not too great of things like nothing like drastic, but the experiences are widely different. And I just wonder it's something, I question a lot when it comes to conservation is can you preserve the experience of someone playing a game or experiencing a piece of art?

It's just, it's something I question and I don't think I'll have an answer to it, but yeah.

[00:19:44] Ben: That's incredible. You're not just looking at it from a technical perspective, you're also thinking about what would it look like to preserve those more experiential aspects?

[00:19:54] Kayla: I didn't learn about experiential conservation until interning at the MET but it supported my ideas that I had before, where, I was questioning, how do you preserve this if it was experienced one way, but it's experienced another way. Like I want to have the answer, but I also don't want to have the answer because I want to further research this. And if I get an answer, then my research is over. If that makes sense. 

[00:20:23] Ben: Yeah. That makes a ton of sense, especially because you're a scientist. 

[00:20:26] Kayla: Yeah. 

[00:20:28] Ben: So you just wrapped up your summer internship. I'm curious if you could just share a bit about that. What was the focus of your internship and what did you get out of it?

[00:20:37] Kayla: I was at the MET and I was working with the photograph conservation department, but specifically with their time-based media collection. I had the opportunity to create identity reports and condition reports for a few artworks that are in the collection and it was mind blowing, honestly, because again, I thought I had this idea of time-based media conservation. I thought it worked this way. I thought it worked a certain way, but I've learned that there's not just one way of time-based media conservation, which is really helpful because I have to realize, with time-based media conservation, it's not like traditional conservation. There's more open-endedness to it.

 I did not realize that when it comes to, let's say a digital video, you may have a single channel video and you can make an assessment out of that, but there are more things that you must do in order to preserve it.

I didn't know what identity report was before starting the internship at the MET. I had an idea, but I was wrong with that idea. Basically there's a lot of documentation to time-based media conservation, which I did not realize. 

Documentation is very important. That's one thing that I learned from the MET. The other thing I learned from the MET is checksums, which blew my mind. You have to make sure the checksum for one digital item is the same each time you open it, or if each time you use it, things of that sort, because digital items, digital assets, digital content, whatever you may want to call, it is not always safe from deterioration basically.

I just hope this is what I hope for it any internship I'm in or like any organization I'm in is that, I can give a different perspective on how to preserve or archive the collection.

I don't know how to explain this, but it's just that, from what I have learned through MIAP is that a lot of people in the field are really set on this one ideology or one belief, one way of archiving. This is one way of preserving. This is one way to do art conservation things like that. I see that a lot and there's no room for, changing things or listening to people rather than hearing people, but listening to people what their different perspectives. 

I did say earlier that, the cultural heritage field has been very opening and supportive with sharing ideas and everything, but it seems like when it comes to moving images or time-based media conservation, that there needs to be another step forward in having perspectives from outside of the archive world as well.

So for example, if we're thinking of video game preservation, we need to speak to people who are video game enthusiasts, people who play games for a living, people who write scholarly articles on video games as well. Just to broaden our idea of how to preserve such things. That's what I, have issue with when it comes to archiving collections that are from underrepresented groups there's not a lot of conversation with people from underrepresented groups. I don't have an example, I'm just making up an example is that, if there's a Black archive or like a queer Black archive, and you, may not be queer. You may not be Black. It's important to you have conversations or bring in the community who is queer and Black. 

[00:24:39] Ben: Yeah. It must be like, kind of a trip to be beginning your career at this particular moment in history. Because there's so many conversations now in institutional spaces about decolonization and uplifting Black voices and obviously these conversations need to happen, and that is a good thing. But there's of course the difference between a surface level conversation versus like, versus actually putting good things into practice. 

[00:25:05] Kayla: As a Black queer non-binary person, I am not the only voice out there, I am not the voice for every Black queer non-binary person. But I also believe that these conversations that are being had, aren't really conversations. They're just like you're hearing someone, but you're not listening to someone. I feel like there's a difference between that. 

One of the first conversations I had about doing art conservation, for a indigenous collection was my first AIC conference and that was in 2018, I believe. I thought that was like mesmerizing because I remember them talking about, they went to the indigenous community and they asked them, Hey, we have these woven baskets, How do we preserve them? Things of that sort. And they had conversations. They even worked with creating woven baskets in the way that the is community did for years and whatnot. And I thought that was what was needed. That's what we needed to do is that we needed to contact the community and ask them, do you want this preserved or not?

That's the first thing. And then working with the community to preserve it just like keeping them in the loop. There's no reason that, a archivist or a conservator does not talk to a community about their artifacts or documents or cultural heritage. It's just like, there's no reason not to do that.

I think the best way of having these conversations is that people who are not from that underrepresented community or from a BIPOC community need to step back and understand, their position, even if they're like, oh, I'm the one archiving this they need to realize that they are not in the position to say, this is how we archive a BIPOC collection.

There needs to be conversations within that community. For example, like if I was working with a Black trans community that were archiving Ballroom videos, for example I don't know much about Ballroom culture, and even though I am Black and queer, like that is not my place to say, this is how we're going to archive it.

It's really important to talk to that community, not just from one person, but from multiple people and from multiple perspectives like, how do you want this preserved? Are there like things that shouldn't be posted online or shouldn't be archived, things of that sort. That's another thing I've been questioning too. Is it my place to preserve other people's culture when they probably don't want people outside of their community to preserve it? To me that's not radical, but to some other people that might be radical.

I'm just going to be honest, I feel like there are some things that should be preserved by that community. I know there are like workshops, and I, know there are discussions and whatnot for archivists who are saying, this is how you preserve your work, or preserve your documents, or preserve your cultural heritage. But in reality, a lot of those ways of archiving are like Western ideals. There needs to be more non Western ideals in the archive and art conservation community. It just goes back to, there's this one idea of preserving or conserving artwork or preserving conserving someone's culture, when in reality there's more ways to do that.

So we as cultural heritage professionals need to understand that the Western ideals that we have been practicing are not going to always work with collections or art or artifacts that are not Western or European. 

And I realize that, my philosophy on this may change later in the future. Things change. And I think that's something to think about as well, is not everything is going to be fixed, as you said. It's always dependent on what culturally is happening in the world, what's happening technology wise, I don't know. I just believe that the conversations that are happening now, aren't really conversations. And that hurts me saying that because I've been to some conversations as well, and they seem well intentioned, but I feel like they're just conversations that aren't going anywhere, and there's no actions taken, there's no practice after the conversation. I think that's where we're stuck at is that we keep on having conversations, but we've been having conversations even before 2020.

[00:30:20] Ben: How much of this is factoring into your thesis work?

[00:30:24] Kayla: Yeah. I don't know if there's a way to do this or if there's an answer, but I want to incorporate what I've learned, working with a community archive, applying it to video game preservation. I'm not sure if that can work and I also, haven't got the thesis project approved yet.

It's still an idea, but I just, I questioned and I wonder, if it's possible to use community archive, practice in a museum setting as well. I know they're two different institutions, but I just wonder if that will benefit both the museum and archives. 

[00:31:06] Ben: Are you kidding me? That is a revelation. 

[00:31:08] Kayla: Thank you. Yeah, I don't know I'm just surprised that hasn't been a thing, but I mean, it also hasn't been a because of institutional racism. There's so many reasons why, this idea or this perspective that I have, isn't adopted by everyone or hasn't been I guess mainstream but I'm very hopeful that, conversations will turn into practices and I'm hopeful that, there can be more people who come into the cultural heritage field and support it with their own, knowledge of things.

So for example with the video games, I think it will be super important if I do happen to have my thesis on this video game to talk with people through threads or Reddit, or I don't use Twitch, but maybe talk to people who do use Twitch. Hey, can I use this Twitch stream that you have a fire emblem to prove like a point or use it within my thesis to support it. I just think that I should not be the only one working on this thesis and making decisions on this is how we need to preserve. What I believe needs to be preserved from a video game is going to be definitely different from someone who plays video games daily, or is a game enthusiast.

They probably believe there's another feature of video games that needed to be preserved. And, I think that's highly important to like, have that perspective and that philosophy of, I don't know, sharing is caring. Let me share my ideas with you. You share your ideas with me and, it'll support and make a better argument for video games as cultural heritage artifacts.

[00:33:00] Ben: So the big thing we haven't touched on really is like your creative practice. A lot of folks in the archives and conservation field have a creative artistic practice and I think that there's like a big spectrum of what people's relationship to that looks like. And for me personally, it's been like a real journey because there was definitely a point in time where like, I feel like I disavowed art making as a thing that I'm allowed to do, and I've come back around to it, and I'm so glad that I finally did. For some people I know they're very public about it. They're like, yeah, I'm a musician. This is my band. Like I've got a whole Instagram for it. I know for you, you have a whole portfolio and website, like as an artist, this is a whole other half or more of who you are online. I'm curious to hear, what is your relationship to art making over the years? How has that changed as you've come into this field?

[00:33:56] Kayla: So I'll tell you the truth. It's been really rough since I got into the field. As I said before my undergraduate degree is in photography and optics and I practice photography. I started in high school and ended up doing it in undergraduate and doing like maybe a year after undergraduate. But I've been going back and forth calling myself an artist, and I think it's due to the fact that, oh, I already have a career. I can't do two things at once kind of thing. Which is not the best ideology to have. I think that limits me a lot. And so I've quickly learned that, I can be an artist and a conservator and an archivist and all these other things, of course. But, I'm still in that rough patch where I'm not practicing as much as I used to. I don't know if it's due to lack of motivation things of that sort, it's been rough, but every time I go back to my photography, I think to myself, oh, I did that oh wow. I'm proud of myself. And so, it helps motivate me. I've been trying to keep up with my practice, not only photography, but like trying new art mediums. I've worked with bookmaking book binding. I enjoy that very much. I think the other thing is that I work better when I'm making art with other people.

Which I never thought I would say that because before I was just doing things on my own but I found, ceramics and bookmaking with people has been, it seems more approachable. But yeah it's just, it's been rough since going back to school and trying to figure out, where my career will lead me to, but I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one. That really makes me happy because I struggled a lot. I struggled for three years creating art. And I'm getting back into it. I just felt as if it wasn't necessarily, oh, I'm bad at making art or something like that. It was more, can I call myself an artist because I'm in a different career now? 

[00:36:21] Ben: Yeah. 

I don't know if this resonates with you, but the space of making art is vulnerable. And it's pushing the envelope in one way or another. I think in many ways, that is the antithesis of our profession. Where we're supposed to be the people with good questions and answers. And I think personally that had a lot to do with my struggle with giving myself space to make art. 

[00:36:45] Kayla: I resonate with that very well. Some of my artwork is not public and some of it is I guess, weird. And I feel as if I had it out there and being part of this profession, it would not be regarded as I guess, professional or whatever. just, 

Will I be taken seriously? Exactly. I have to realize, not only am I in the cultural heritage field but I'm also an artist and I think it's okay to do both and, it's okay to have all these passions.

[00:37:18] Ben: I think we should continue normalizing that. I think it's silly this idea that I dunno, like we have to just have this clinical perspective. 

Beyond the world of games and those niche, like inner worlds and sub-communities, are there any other stories or histories in particular that you would like to be involved in preserving or transmitting into the future?

[00:37:44] Kayla: I want to have a chance to work with Black and queer collections that are openly being archived and whatnot. There are a lot of Instagram accounts that are archiving these niche Black and queer stories. Black and queer stories for Minnesota or Black and queer stories from Houston or from the UK and I just find that so interesting and I want to be part of it. Just because I think it's a selfish reason really it's because I want to learn more about my community and learn more about my culture and where things originated from and everything. And from the Instagram accounts that I visit often it seems, that they're doing a wonderful, like a beautiful job of illustrating to people, this culture either within Minnesota or within Houston, or like I said, in the UK of these Black queer communities. So I would love to work with them. There's also an artist that I would love to work with. She is a trans Black woman and she makes video games specifically geared toward the trans experience and she works with a lot of people in the community to have their voices heard. I think she does amazing work.

Then from her, like I learned a lot more about, Black women game designers from her as well and it's just there's a community that I haven't even heard about and it's not necessarily hidden. It's just, I haven't heard about it before. I think it hasn't been talked about often.

[00:39:24] Ben: So before too long, you are going to graduate. No pressure, but what does the perfect dream job for you look like? 

[00:39:34] Kayla: Wow. Okay. This is the problem. I'm interested in everything and I want to do everything. But I think I will still go with preserving video games and because I really like Nintendo games, working with Nintendo and working with an archive, do they even have an archive? I should look into that. It seems like they should. Disney has one, so Nintendo should have one. Working with them and their archive would be amazing. If I come back down to earth and if I'm more grounded I would say, my dream job is either working for a museum or a community archive.

I know those are two separately, totally different institutions, but my experience has always been with museums so I can acclimate to, the museum setting very well. And I enjoy working in art museums, but I also enjoy the idea of working. With a community archive. It's more of selfish reason that I want to work with a community archive. I want to see them prosper.

I don't know, there's something about community archives where I think they need the recognition of their work. I don't know if they're being taken seriously or not, but I feel as if Those archives are super beneficial to any community. It's just something about community archives is just, wow. I don't know. I have no words for it actually. If I could think of a word right now, it will probably be wholesome. It seems like I could do more for the community around me with a community archive then with like a bigger institution. I feel as if I would feel great and wholesome and everything, but I also want to give that same feeling to other people, if that makes sense. 

[00:41:37] Ben: I know you're working on your thesis this year, so that's probably about to become all consuming if it's not already, but other than that what's coming next for you. 

[00:41:47] Kayla: I did start school Wednesday. I am taking an elective the American Computer Games of the 1980s. So that's one of my classes. It's already very interesting. I have other classes, so Advanced Topics is one class I'm taking there's Video Preservation and Digital Preservation, and then I believe a two credit course on just like my internship. So I do have an internship. This fall I will be working with Third World Newsreel. That's, what's coming up for me. I'm very excited to start school again. I love school. I will do it again. I honestly would. 

[00:42:24] Ben: PhD in your future? 

[00:42:25] Kayla: Maybe! I'm not sure. But I'm very excited for all my classes. 

[00:42:30] Ben: When I have folks on the podcast that have been in the field for decades, I usually ask them if they have any advice for the up and coming generation, be they artists, conservators, et cetera. But I'd like to flip that. So as an emerging professional what advice would you give to the older generation?

[00:42:50] Kayla: So I think established professionals can learn from emerging professionals in terms of current discussions that are happening in the field. I think us as emerging professionals have a lot of new ideas that we would like to talk to someone about. I think it's always great to know that a established professional understands and supports you.

They don't have to be your mentor or anything, but I think having support from established professionals is ideal. first of all, that builds your confidence, which is great. But it's also your ideas as an emerging professional are being included within the profession. Being heard from someone I think that's all there is to it. We just to be heard of course. 

I think it's just great that there are established professionals who are already, talking with emerging professionals about, what they would like to do in their career and like what they want to see. I just want to see more of that. I know it's already happening, but I just want to see more of that support. This is where we will advance in the field by just listening to each other. I keep on going back to that, like just listening is the first step and then actually taking the action.

For example, being at The MET with, Nora, Jonathan, Georgia everyone in the photograph conservation department was very supportive. I will say that over and over again, I felt so supported being there and I just want that for every emerging professional that what they're pursuing is being supported by someone who is more established. And as I said before, it builds the confidence of an emerging professional and it makes us feel as if we do have a say in this field. 

[00:44:54] Ben: So conversely is there any advice that you would give to somebody interested in getting into this field?

[00:45:02] Kayla: Yes. I've thought about this often actually. Me getting into this field felt like a rush. I felt like I always had to do things in such a quick manner. When in reality I didn't have to do that. It was just, my inner thoughts saying oh, I have to get this done now in order to be in this career, or I have to do this in order to be in this career.

I think, take your time. Honestly I talked to a lot of art conservators while in the process of applying for graduate school and thinking of this field as a career or a potential career and a lot of conservators, didn't start really, or didn't get into a program until later on.

I always thought to myself, oh, I have to go to graduate school right after undergrad. But I found out that, experience was the first thing I really needed just to make sure I knew this was the right field for me. Even with talking to some of my supervisors in the conservation center that I worked at they said, oh, you have time.

And I kept on telling myself no, I do not have time. And I look back at it now and I think to myself, wow, I had all this time to do this, but I've rushed into things. I'm not saying I regret my decision going to grad school now or anything of that sort. It's just that I know that for a lot of people, especially, I can't speak for everyone, but from who I've talked to, who have also been archivists of color or conservators of color I think we feel rushed getting into this field.

There's this notion that we have to present. and do our best from the get-go rather than learning, doing trial and error, things of that sort. It's just a lot of pressure I feel like. As I said, I can't speak for everyone, but I know for me like, as a Black queer non-binary person in this field, I feel a lot of pressure.

And this is specifically for anyone who is a cultural heritage worker who is queer or Black or non-binary: I understand that pressure and it's okay to feel that pressure, but also realize that the work that you're doing now, or the experience that you will receive or get from being in this field is going to be beneficial and support everyone and support yourself as well.

It's hard to get into this field without feeling that you don't feel like you belong. If that makes sense. I had to really get over that. It's still a process of getting over this idea of imposter syndrome. But I know I do belong here and, this is for everyone now: I do believe that, you do belong here if you really do have a passion for cultural heritage work, you do belong in this field. So my two things are: you do belong in this field, and take your time 

[00:48:13] Ben: Kayla Henry-Griffin. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your story with us. Your passion for your work is infectious, and I see such a bright path ahead of you. 

And as always, thank you, dear listener for joining us for this week's conversation. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If you did, why don't you hop on over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a nice little review? I would so appreciate it. If you want to keep the conversation going, you can find us on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence. 

Before we go, just another reminder that a major mission of this podcast is to equitably support artists that come on the show. And that's something that I can't do without your help. So if you are in a place to donate, please go ahead and hurry over to artandobsolescence.com/donate, where you can make a tax deductible gift through our fiscal sponsor, the New York Foundation for the Arts. Thanks again for anything you can do to support the show, but most of all, thank you for listening. It's been great having you here. Have a great week, stay safe. My name is Ben Fino-Radin, and this has been Art and Obsolescence.