Episode 011: Barbara London

Show Notes

This week on the show our guest is the one and only Barbara London. Since she began her career at MoMA in 1973 and collected the museum’s first video art in 1975, Barbara has had an immeasurable impact on the field of time-based media art – from her 1979 exhibition “Video from Tokyo to Fukui and Kyoto” to her phenomenal new book “Video art: the first fifty years”. Listen in on our conversation to hear Barbara’s story, and her relationships with artists such as Laurie Anderson, Joan Jonas, Nam June Paik, Teiji Furuhashi, Bill Viola, and more, that have formed the bedrock of her prolific curatorial practice.

Links from the conversation with Barbara
> Barbara's website: https://www.barbaralondon.net
> Video/Art: The First Fifty Years: https://www.phaidon.com/store/art/video-art-the-first-fifty-years-9780714877594

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I sit down with artists, collectors, curators, conservators, and more. People that are shaping the past, present and future of art and technology.

 And this week on the show, we have a very, very special guest. 

[00:00:21] Barbara: I'm Barbara London, and I was a curator of media art for about 40 years at MoMA. 

[00:00:28] Ben: Back when I was at MoMA, my colleagues, and I would often joke that if it wasn't for Barbara, none of us would have jobs, but there's real truth to this. Barbara London is the definition of a pioneer. She was at MoMA just as video art was starting to emerge, and put in year after year after year of hard work fundraising and internal advocacy to get to the point where the Museum of Modern Art took time-based media art, seriously resulting in a sort of de-risking for the medium, for other museums. And it really wouldn't be an overstatement to say that if it wasn't for Barbara's grit and perseverance in those early years, that today's landscape of time-based media art in museum collections may very well look quite different. 

Before we get started. Just a reminder that a major mission of this show is to financially support the artists that come on the show. But that's something I can't do without your help. So if you are in a position to donate, you can go to art and obsolescence.com/donate, where you can make a tax deductible gift through our fiscal sponsor of the New York foundation for the arts. 

And last week we received a donation from our guest host mother. So thanks to Ms. Mom. I really appreciate it. Now without further delay. Here's my conversation with Barbara London. 

[00:01:47] Barbara: My life in the arts began in music actually. I played the piano from a very young age, and then I switched over to the organ and then the cello. So I was very involved with music in the early part of my life. And then I decided I did not want it to become a musician professionally and I have an older sister who would drag me to the metropolitan museum and we would stand in front of Monet's and she would say, what's the difference between this haystack and that haystack? And I would say light, the light is different, you know? 

I went into the arts, I think because my family were all scientists. So that's what you do. when you're growing up, you do what your parents don't do. My father was a chemist. My mother worked in biology, but my uncle was a ham radio operator. So that was curious to me, and then my grandfather was an engineer he worked in, um, railway signaling and it was very computer like what he did. 

So anyway, that's more or less how that started. in my freshman year, I really switched over to a double major of English and art history.

When I was an undergraduate, I applied for summer jobs in a number of places, even up at Corning at the glass museum. I applied at the metropolitan museum and I was very fortunate that this was it'll tell my age it was. Oh, I forget it was in the sixties.

I and 11 others were the first interns that the MET ever hired and we had little outfits that the girls Anne Klein designed, the guys had outfits that Brooks Brothers gave them. So we all sat at an information desk in the lobby and helped visitors plan their tour. We all were assigned first to one curatorial department and then another, we were given cocktails at different trustees homes.

We were treated very, very well. It was very nice. So that was, that was really my introduction to museum work. And that was what I became interested in. So when I got my masters and I knocked on doors for a job I got one at MoMA, and one thing led to another and it was a curious time. MoMA MoMA professional staff was up in arms about the proliferation of job titles and uneven salaries in the different departments for very similar jobs. So the union was forming and we went on a strike. And then I was offered a job. It was very much curatorial and it got me on the track to do what I have ended up doing, but I really started out in the print department 

 I was always interested in what hadn't been over studied. So I actually put together an artist book collection when I was in the print department. It was a very early show I did right before I really moved on into video. 

So people have asked me, well, how do you make that jump? And I say well, it's very easy. The artist book, the very cheap book that costs $2 by Ed Ruscha was intended to get into people's hands. You know, it wasn't like a $5,000 drawing. It was a $2 book and it had that intimacy.

So video with the early "portable" camera - it was not really supportable it weighed 20 pounds, and they take up reel weighed another 20 pounds - but artists like Paik and many others, Joan Jonas, they were utopianists and they wanted their work to be seen by students, young artists, not to be just in the hands of wealthy collectors, but to be accessible.

Also, I think people forget that we didn't have projectors. Come on, you know, technology was immature at that point. Artists like Woody and Steina Vasulka would gang up and pile up a whole bunch of monitors to have width or height. A cinema screen, you know, is enveloping, but if you stack up a bunch of monitors and sit down in front of them at an early iteration of The Kitchen, then you had something different, but as imposing, you know, the attempt was to be as imposing. So those were the early days.

 I had quite a few mentors video is part of contemporary practice and one of my mentors was an amazing contemporary curator, Jennifer Licht.

And I worked with Jenny on a show of sculpture by Richard Serra, Bob Morris, Lynda Benglis, and a number of others. Those artists in the late sixties were very much experimenting with performance, with alternatives with sculpture of unusual materials. So it was quite normal for them to also experiment with film and with this new medium of video. So I think artists at that time in the late sixties, early seventies were experimenting and pushing boundaries. 

Artists were very against television and it's one way street. They were very against institutions like a MoMA, which many felt was closed to a lot of work. So it was all about you know, it was the anti Vietnam war marches, it was the rise of the feminist movement, there were a lot of things in the air and, you know, these alternatives were a way to express a feeling, a sentiment, a politics. Nothing was pure so if an artist like James Nares was doing something sculptural, she was also in a punk band. Then Joan Jonas, if you look at her credits, you'll see Nares contributed music for, I forget which one of her very early works. So what get very annoyed about is of course I'm from New York, but one city, one situation, whether that was cologne or New York, it's not one, , interconnected group of people. There were different "tribes", you know? Some lived on the Lower East Side and they were connected and maybe they lived in a rent squat, you know, or they lived in what became Soho and they would see each other on the street, so then they would share a camera maybe. So it's not like it was one happy family. It was tribes.

I used to joke that I was a word junkie that in the very beginning, there was nothing written about this field and I saved every artist's biography we didn't have computers then. I saved every printed piece of paper, whether that was an article in the Village Voice or some other magazine, or, artists made magazine or whatever.

I saved it and I had lots and lots of interns over the years, many went on to become museum directors, they were the ones who had to file all of these pieces of paper. I organized it alphabetically by artists, by institution, museums, alternative spaces by subject, by medium. It started out, you know, just with one four drawer file cabinet. Ultimately I think it was over 50 drawers, more than 50 and then ultimately all of that went to the library as reference material. So that was for me to be able to go and do my research. So that to me was part of being a curator early on was to really understand the field and to be responsive to artists, if they let me know they were coming to New York from Cologne or Tokyo or wherever they were from Toronto, I always sat down with them because they were a source of information, not only about their own work, but about others.

So many of these artists were teaching. So I'd always ask, well, who are your students? So I was always just a sponge for information and trying to then be organized about that material that I was accumulating. 

So then fortunately, when I was writing a book and Phaidon was very particular about all my footnotes, they wanted to know exactly what this one article was that I quoted something of Laurie Anderson and I had to go back to the artist's files and if you can believe it, it was an in-flight magazine from TWA.

And I could go back and find the quote, find the page number and find what the magazine was called. You know, a TWA in-flight magazine. So anyway that was my life.

It was a very slow process for MoMA. First, it was exhibition, an ongoing exhibition series, and there was a grant that I wrote and got from the Rockefeller Foundation, and that's really what allowed me to leave the print department and work full-time on video. 

It was funding for the first year of what we called Video Viewpoints a lecture series, where artists came, spoke and showed their work. So the equivalent for film was Cineprobe and I started Video Viewpoints and every artist who came, whether that was Juan Downey or, you know, Paik or Joan Jonas, I said, what you say is as important as what you show because I am transcribing it. My interns did that too. So these four young people with little earmuff headsets were transcribing. And Sophie, in the film department just said the other day that she still refers to these transcripts because, you know, this is what I was doing with the ephemera, this was primary information. So I wanted, you know, the artists to talk about what they were doing, how they were doing it, why they were doing it. 

[00:12:10] Ben: That's so inspiring to hear that all the formalization of things began with this just kind of a curatorial project, this public facing thing. What bridged that gap? Was it just the success of that program in the response to it was so good that MoMA began to take this stuff seriously and said, we need to give Barbara a little corner of the museum? 

[00:12:30] Barbara: No, well, it was, it was slow and steady. The supporters, I already mentioned her name, Jennifer Licht, Reva Castleman in the print department and Mary Lee bandy in film. I was always making presentations to other staff, you know, whether that was Bill Ruben heard me speak or, Blanchette Rockefeller was a great supporter and gave money for some of the first videos.

And then Agnes Gund supported, various people supported. MoMA has what's called the contemporary arts council. Some of those members were very supportive, you know, so I would hold these we we called it the video advisory committee. We would hold meetings and you know, there would be acquisitions.

So it was a long time before video became, you know, the media department, media and performance. I was just very committed to the field and to having it be at MoMA and figuring out a way in which it could be.

[00:13:27] Ben: Yeah. I mean, did you, in the back of your mind kind of have this idea that eventually someday it would become what it is today at MoMA, like a full on curatorial department with its own acquisition budget, and so on... 

[00:13:39] Barbara: Well, I guess I was my goal and my dream and as I said, these individual curatorial individuals who were so encouraging, they really showed me the ropes. You know, how you organize your correspondence, how you organize your, you know, your artist's files or how you do an artist studio visit.

They took me along with them and I saw, you know, I observed. You know, I was in Sol Lewitt's studio early, I was in Donald Judd's, Dan Flavin, with Jenny, you know, that was, that was amazing.

[00:14:14] Ben: So as you, you know, began to get acquisitions, budget and start acquiring video art what were some of those first acquisitions? 

[00:14:22] Barbara: The first single channel videos were Richard Serra's TV Delivers People, John Jonas Vertical Roll a Bill Wegman, a Paik Global Groove, and it went on from there. The first sculptural installation ish piece was actually, Shigeko Kubota's Nude Descending a Staircase.

[00:14:45] Ben: Oh, wow. 

[00:14:46] Barbara: And I joke that for those early installation ish pieces, I had to do a presentation, always to the painting and sculpture department, because Kubota was in quote, a sculpture and I had to raise the money. It took a little while. So if you look at the wall label for any of those works, it's a long donor list. One by one, I raised the money. Hat in hand. 

[00:15:20] Ben: How long do you think it took to raise the funds? 

[00:15:23] Barbara: A couple of years. 

[00:15:24] Ben: Really? 

[00:15:25] Barbara: Sure. 

[00:15:26] Ben: You are the definition of perseverance and grit. A couple of years, That is such dedication for a specific work of art. That's amazing. 

[00:15:36] Barbara: Well, I mean, I was doing other things, you know, but.

[00:15:39] Ben: Of course you were, but still to stick with that. That's incredible.

So I mean, as you began cultivating the collection and, growing it and developing it, obviously technology is changing artistic practice is evolving and changing. So over the course of those years, how did you begin to think differently about collection development. Were you focusing in on different things? How did your priorities shift as a curator over the years? 

[00:16:02] Barbara: Well, as I was saying, in the seventies, we didn't have projectors. So, You know, I was always then looking how artists were dealing with "the new". So once we had projectors, that's more like in the nineties, then I was questioning artists. Why are you slapping an image on the wall of the gallery?

You know, what's, what's your motive, and then of course projectors became brighter where you could, put them in a room that has some ambient light. What was very different was seventies, eighties, other curators in the building, trustees except for, of course, Peter Norton. There was a fear of technology, you know, someone like Peter Norton if you were invited in to his then apartment at Columbus Circle, you might see a Gillian Wearing on a flat screen.

 You know, just set on the floor and propped on the wall. You know, it was a big flat screen that was somewhere in the nineties, or you might go into his study and on his laptop, he was running a video. Well, not everybody did that. Once more people had laptops, once people had smartphones, the fear of technology was gone.

So then you had trustees and lots of collectors, moving into acquiring this kind of work. And then of course the gamechangers were Pam and Dick Kramlich when they decided that they would focus on this as a field and that was a major moment. So they in the United States were very important.

Eileen Cohen had a number of works in Munich, Jenny Goetz, and you know, more and more like Julia Stoschek. That's a younger generation, of course.

[00:17:49] Ben: So in those moments where projectors were starting to become accessible. Who were some of those artists you saw beginning to use these things because it's a huge shift and, there were video artists who were working with video and they suddenly were going from maybe video sculpture, or just single channel just video or on tape, to more spatial things. At that time, who was entering that physicality in a way that you thought was successful? 

[00:18:15] Barbara: Well, clearly an artist like Bill Viola with Room For St. John of the Cross. He achieves that and. Joan Jonas when she turned her performative work Mirage into an installation, and that was one of the acquisitions that I was able to make for MoMA, where that's projection and monitor on some of the props from the piece.

So once she decided never to perform that work again, it wasn't going to have a life and how would that be? And then that raised all kinds of questions, how to acquire it and how to figure out what the parameters were for the piece. How big, how small could the room be? You know, the scale of the projections. Of course you had Steve McQueen and Deadpan. You had, Isaac Julian going from being a filmmaker to then, an installation artist.

[00:19:14] Ben: Obviously you were very active in building this collection just so early, you know, truly like multiple decades before other institutions would really start collecting video are in, in the way that they do today. You were also active for a very long time before, even just like the concept of time-based media conservation entered the minds of conservators. there must've been some point in time where you had that epiphany of like, oh God, this stuff doesn't last forever.

[00:19:40] Barbara: Well, I knew from the beginning that I had to take care, and I turned to of course, film colleagues, and I also went to various little conferences the NEA held or Library of Congress that the most important thing was stable, temperature and humidity. If you have big fluctuations, that's bad. So in the beginning, the videos, single channel work that we acquired were stored in these vaults where the films were kept. When MoMA built it's incredible, Hamlin, vault system there was a special room designed for video. I probably became fully, fully aware of the monitor issue with Gary Hill's In As Much As It Is Always Already Taking Place.

So with that acquisition, the date of the work is 91, but I think we acquired it a few years later. We actually got two backup sets of equipment of the, of the monitors, and Gary taught one of the projectionists how to, you know, elongate the wires and do all that.

So I would always say when work was collected, hopefully it got on view in, you know, decent amount of time. We didn't do preservation in house. We didn't do that kind of thing. We relied on, the distributor. Whether that's an Electronic Arts Intermix or Video DataBank. With the single channel ones that is, and then in the very early days, not the seventies, but more like the eighties late eighties, I think we were teaching the galleries how to handle the work of their artists, you know, and then it was the Kramlichs who led the way. That was, I guess, by the time Glenn Wharton was there, then that's a brain trust. You know, it's the curator the registrar or the conservator, the art handler, and you all have to sit down after the installation has been up, and then when it's taken down and compare notes and get that into the files. So, you know, there's always a rush and, hopefully that time is taken to do that.

[00:21:52] Ben: How have you seen the way that artists work with technology shift over the years?

[00:21:57] Barbara: I think every artist approaches their work old and new with fresh eyes. They use whatever the materials are to realize what that image in their head is or what that research has led them to. And the research is not the technology to me, the research is the idea and, they're following, pursuing an idea. So sometimes it means they have to learn a new software. They have to get an assistant to learn the new software. 

[00:22:30] Ben: Is that how it worked in the early days though? Was it more intuitive then? You know, because I just think back to, the real early kind of activist interventions with media and it seems almost like more direct in a way. 

[00:22:43] Barbara: I think, you know, in the early days. Okay. Let's just use Joan Jonas as an example, her Vertical Roll she's very involved with performance and she's very much involved with video and thinking about time and the image and the early flaw, which was that vertical roll.

I think it's just brilliant what she did. It took her a while and she worked with a very good camera person and two very good assistants. It's one take and that's quite extraordinary that this is done all in one take, this very complicated piece. So that took a lot of orchestration organization understanding of what the technology could do.

So I think, yes, indeed, it's intuitive, but it's really heavy prep that she did. Because I'm from New York, this is what's close to me, I know Bill Viola really studied, like what is the electronic signal? And what's the relationship between image and sound and you know, how to work, how to make, you know, he had, he would begin with an image in his head, I think, and then find the best piece of equipment that could do what he wanted to do. Anyway, that's how he did it, but I think about the conversation I had the other day with Amar Kanwar. Every single work that he's made technically is different. He's like, just working it all out. You know, he has a team, but he's the brain of it and the one makes every final decision. So it's, to me, not that much different from the way Bill worked. 

I'm speaking with Ed Atkins next week and, I sat down with him right after his opening at the New Museum, he's back in Copenhagen, of course. That's also a very complicated work, but you look at it and you don't feel the complexity you do, but you don't. He's talking with his mother, in quote, a simple conversation, but it's a very complex conversation about memory and, the past, whatever.

And he used all this, motion capture. You know, he's got a GoPro on his head when he was recording. He's got all of these cameras around him and he's got a team of people in the next room. He had access to that because the New Museum for the number of years, had a program with Nokia Experiments in Art and Technologies. So he was able to use some of Nokia's, special work. So that's a case of him, during a lockdown, figuring out the work, what he wanted to do. So that's very much one extreme.

[00:25:28] Ben: Yeah, I know. And, Ed's work is a great, parallel to what you were saying with Joan in the sense that, when you view his work, it can technologically, if you don't know, anything about technology just seems like very simplistic. It's like very clean. It's always very simple. 

[00:25:43] Barbara: Well, it's simple and Ed uses the term, I forget if he uses the term honest, you know, that you don't think about the technology. You're very engaged with the work.

[00:25:55] Ben: You've had such a front row seat to seeing New York change over the years. Thinking about the art world in New York over the years, from your perspective, what are the biggest ways that it's changed? 

[00:26:06] Barbara: You know, in the beginning, the art world was very, very small. There were very few artists, there were very few galleries you could have bought an Egon Schiele drawing for $2,000. I didn't have $2,000 then, you know, but, um, now we have, auctions and, yeah I think the art world is going through its own kind of not upheaval, but, I mean, I, I witnessed the rise of Soho, right? And then, Soho became boutiques then Paula Cooper and others moved to Chelsea. Now, Paula is still there. A number of them are still there, but everybody moved downtown. Or small ones, smaller galleries moved to the east village, then those rents went up. Then we have COVID and rents went down. It's still not easy. I don't think it's easy for like Artists Space. You know, they're working very hard. I think Printed Matter is working very hard. Yeah, how do you grab people's attention? And how do you say this is relevant today, when people are bombarded, with social media, this and that. When we were all locked down at home, we all were going interior. Not only in our space, but in our, in our brain and you know, that was in some ways good.

We had to think a lot. We had to read a lot. I think it's going to be different and we don't know yet, cause we're not out of it yet. 

[00:27:34] Ben: You know, I don't mean to like overly simplify or like be insensitive to gentrification, but it is a fact that it's become harder for artists to live in New York than it was, you know, like in the sixties. Are there places that you you've been to, where you've seen maybe that spirit alive and well? 

[00:27:51] Barbara: I was very fortunate as a curator. I traveled a lot. I went to Japan for the first time in 77. I went to China in the eighties and the nineties and the two thousands. And I watched artists come up with in quote, alternative spaces. You know, I've seen it in Toronto. I've seen it in London. London still seems, to have a vibrance. There are a couple of galleries down in Munich who, you know, they're stalwarts.

[00:28:21] Ben: You mentioned your travel to Asia. Pretty early on you began traveling building these international bridges and meeting these artists and doing all of this incredible research, because, you know, this is again pre web like you couldn't just, you know, Google, like who are famous Japanese media artists. What made you start traveling there specifically? 

[00:28:42] Barbara: I was fascinated in the seventies that a lot of the equipment that artists were using was made in Japan. It was Sony, Matsushita, JVC, whatever. And an opportunity emerged where I was offered a grant of $5,000 to go to Japan, to then pull together, show of video that would be at MoMA. So for that $5,000, I got myself to Japan. I stayed three weeks. I met like 30 artists. This is pre internet as you said, when the phone internationally was very expensive. So I wrote letters. Can you imagine I wrote letters and I heard back from people. So I landed in Tokyo and started to do my research. 

[00:29:27] Ben: What year was that first trip? 

[00:29:28] Barbara: 77 and then I did, a show, video from Tokyo to Fukui and Kyoto, I shot all of the images for the catalog. Bill Viola's to be wife was my intern and she typed the catalog and it was published. Anyway, we did everything for $5,000. Can you imagine? We published a catalog too, and then the show went to 15 museums. It went on the road.

I'm very happy that I was asked to be, um, what do you call it? A PhD, critic, for a student who's finishing her dissertation right now on Chinese video. She like, the woman in Chicago who did the same thing, both of these young women spent three, four years in China learning Mandarin, not just speaking but reading. So they were able to go into artist studios and, really have long conversations. I think Ellen Larson's dissertation, when it gets published will be very important. I think, Zhang Peili needs to be better understood.

You know, he's like a giant, but you know, we better know more. It's very complicated how he emerged and, you know, the opportunities he had, what his life was, what, what his subjects were, you know, how he worked. So I always knew from the very first that I went to Japan, to be a westerner airlifted in, and to be there three weeks and then leave. That's a very different thing. You're just dusting the surface. So I always acknowledged that. I did study Japanese at Middlebury one summer, and then I was able to hold a baby like conversation with you know? So I think because language is very connected to the work, you know, if you're dealing with a foreign culture, so that's important to try.

[00:31:22] Ben: Something that I've always admired about you and I mean, like any good curator, I suppose, is just like the, the real, meaningful relationships that you've built with these artists over the years. I mean, thinking back to, you know, people like Paik or like Teiji like, or Joan or Bill, you know, these are your friends in a lot of ways. And, I'm sure that you have a real unique perspective on many of them that, you don't necessarily get to see reflected in, how they're written into history. so thinking back on those, those friendships, those relationships, do you think, is, there any one of those artists that you think isn't fully understood still today? Is there anyone we're not quite getting? 

[00:32:03] Barbara: I think of the ones you mentioned, Teiji because Teiji was really very complex and he had many, many connections and, many aspects to his life. I just know I was fortunate because in the times I had sabbaticals in Japan and I was lent a pied a terre in Kyoto, which was right around the corner from the Dump Type office. So I hung out with them. I swam in the swimming pool that he swam and as a kid, you know, and, we would go clothes shopping together. You know, he was getting outfits for his drag queen stuff, this friend's wedding, he, he performed as Julie Andrews, you know, in drag, you this and this woman's parents, her father was like a bureaucrat. And the bravery he had when he had aids and when he came out with it, which nobody else did. 

And I learned so much, you know, I would ask, we would talk long conversations about the difference between Kyoto and Tokyo and the culture and stuff. I think attempt is being made now to better understand the different sides of his life. 

[00:33:13] Ben: I'm so glad that you brought him up in that way, because that's something that I have noticed. The very limited opportunities that I think America and, much of the Western world has had exposure to his work, is so different. He was the hub of his social community of artists and I think that that's something that, as a conservator who's worked on his work and like researched it. I'm only beginning to understand. So thank you for sharing that.

 Yeah. so Barbara, what's coming next for you. There's always something Barbara London doesn't stay still for long. 

[00:33:44] Barbara: The one big thing that I've already referred to is my podcast series. It is called Barbra London Calling. So I've got 12 artists, and I'm very happy Valerie Cassel Oliver will be the one interviewing me as 13. So in season one, I ended each of my conversations with one of the 12 artists and asked if they defined themselves as a media artist, all of them said no. I had a wonderful conversation with Lorraine O'Grady, with Sondra Perry, with, Auriea Harvey, and others.

And then perhaps I'll turn the transcripts from both the series into a book. I'm not sure. I'll have to do interstitial writing, but that's okay. The two periods when I did them last year and this year they're very different. And like I was saying, to analyze what the changes are, is going to be, you know, 

[00:34:42] Ben: Well, I have to thank you, Barbara, because now that I've had a podcaster on my podcast to cross-promote their podcast, I feel like a real podcaster. Cause that's just what you do in podcasting, you know? So thank you for that. 

[00:34:53] Barbara: Okay. Good. 

[00:34:54] Ben: Thank you so much for your time. It's been such a treat to get to sit down with you, you continue to be so inspirational. 

[00:35:00] Barbara: Well thank you very much. Thank you for your good questions. 

Good luck. I hope I see you in person. 

[00:35:04] Ben: And that's it for this week's show. Thanks again, Barbara for your time. And thank you, dear listener for joining us for today's conversation. 

If you're enjoying the show, I hope that you will consider leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. It really does help other people discover the show, which in turn helps with our work to pay artists. If you want to keep the conversation going, you can find the show on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence and lastly, a reminder that you can now leave voicemail for the show at 1 (833) ART-DATA. That's 1 833 278-3282. Feel free to leave questions, comment on something you hear on the show, or just say hello. Thanks again so much for listening, my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.