Episode 024: Raina Mehler
Show Notes
This week on the show we sit down with Raina Mehler, who is leading the way for how one of the largest contemporary art enterprises in the world manages the challenging needs of time-based media art installations. Tune in to hear all about Raina’s work as a registrar establishing Pace Gallery's internal practices for installing, shipping, tracking, and caring for time-based media art, what it was like to become Pace’s first director of media arts, and what she is up to these days at Pace’s new venture Superblue.
Links from the conversation with Raina
> https://www.pacegallery.com
> https://www.superblue.com
> https://www.teamlab.art
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology.
Welcome back friends this week on the show, we'll be visiting with someone who is leading the way for how one of the biggest contemporary art enterprises in the world manages the challenging needs of time-based media art installations.
[00:00:23] Raina: Hi, my name is Raina Mehler and I am a Director at Superblue, as well as an independent curator writer and producer.
[00:00:30] Ben: Now on last week's show, we heard about the crucial role that archives and cataloging in general plays in the care of time-based media art. It's not just curators, conservators and technicians to keep our alive. As we'll hear from today's guest registrars, the people who are responsible for the what, where, when and how of art moving from point A to B cataloging, tracking, insurance, and more, all of this plays an incredibly important role in the bigger picture of caring for art. So I am just so thrilled to have Raina on the show today so that we can hear her story of establishing these back of house practices at Pace gallery, eventually establishing and leading their media art department, and now doing the same for Pace's new immersive art venture, Superblue.
Before we get started though. Thank you, Neil, John and Jas so very, very much for your generosity in donating to the show last week. Your gifts will be going twice as far thanks to the current match we have from the Bates-Gossett Family Fund. If you've been enjoying this here little podcast and you have some extra pocket change to chip in, I hope you will consider supporting our mission of supporting artists. We've paid out $2,000 to artists so far, and we are just getting started again right now is a great time to contribute while we have a match in place. So head on over to artandobsolescence.com/donate, where you can give through the lovely folks that handle the money stuff for us, the New York Foundation for the Arts. Now without further delay, let's dive into this week's conversation with Raina Miller.
[00:01:53] Raina: My aunt worked at the Erie art museum. I'm from Erie, Pennsylvania, and I just remember being very young and my mom and I would volunteer at all of her events and, you know, work the blues and jazz festival every year and I would go to all of the art openings, and I just loved, I was, you know, an only child or I am an only child and very chatty and I would walk around the museum kind of talking to everyone about the artwork. My aunt worked there for, I believe, like 10 years and she did a mix of curatorial and registrar work. So I just always, you know, I always admired her and so my mom and I would always go to all of her events. So I feel Like, I got exposed, to art very early on. In high school I was really fortunate to go to a liberal arts Catholic high school, which is kind of an oxymoron, um, maybe to some people, but, um, there, I took ceramics photography, and they had art history courses. My teacher, Dr. Borowitz I'll never forget him because he truly inspired me and he was one of those teachers that was very tough. It was a mandatory class, and you had to write everything out. He would just randomly pick 10 slides and it would be artist, title, date, medium, and then one fact about it and spelling counted and you'd go throughout all, you know, from ancient cultures like Egypt and Roman and Greek all the way to contemporary art. And so I just fell in love with it and took all of his art classes and in particular was really drawn to romanticism and surrealism. I also wrote in the school newspaper I had like a opinions editorial page and I wrote poems. And so when I went to go to college, And North Carolina, at the university of Charlotte, UNCC, I originally was going to major in English. But I took a contemporary art class there with, Jae Emerling, who was another, I think, super influential figure in my life and getting me down this path of art and art history, and the art world. And he really opened my mind to contemporary art. I switched my major to art history and worked really closely with him over the four years of school. And he, you know, was like, if you really want to be in the arts, you got to go to like the main art centers. So you, it has to be New York or LA. So he kind of prepped me for grad school as well. So for my honors thesis as an undergraduate, I went to New York with my mom and went to the Robert Frank retrospective at MoMA. That was a very iconic show, because it was the first time his contact sheets were exhibited and you could really see that, like the way he cropped the photographs was integral into how you read them and interpreted them. And so I wrote my honors thesis. Basically on that and used that to submit to Hunter College. So I ended up applying to Hunter and I got in and Hunter also is such an amazing experience and working with William Agee and Emily Braun and several others really, just opened my eyes and we would always go to museums and, they would have their colleagues come in and talk and they really challenged you and tested you. And what I loved about Hunter is that the class size is really small. It's about 12 people. So you get to form this bond with your classmates over the years. It was one of the most memorable moments of my life. It was a big culture shock in a sense, because, you know, I'm from Western Pennsylvania, then I go to school down south and when I lived in Charlotte, I worked at the Bechtler Museum of Modern Art and the conversations we were having there were like, how do you introduce the Charlotte community to modern abstract art? So it was just strange to go from working at the Bechtler Museum museum, talking about how do you introduce the public to abstract York City, where walking around the lower east side and going to all these galleries where there's like nudity and profanity and, you know, not to sound naive, but it was just complete, you know, contrast to what I had ever seen before. And I was lucky to have that community of Hunter I feel like to help acclimate me to the city.
[00:06:50] Ben: You spent a good portion of your early career as a registrar and I think that you're the first person that's been on the show that has worked as a registrar and that's one of those positions that's very back of house and it's so critical, so I'm curious if you could explain for our listeners, what is a registrar?
[00:07:07] Raina: The position of a registrar is very specific to the art industry and museums and galleries. A registrar has a huge responsibility. We are responsible for caring for the artwork, how do you get an artwork from. A to Z. So we oversee shipping how that work is packed, what method it needs to ship, whether it's, over sea or by a plane. Do you need to travel with the artwork? One of the most fun, well, sometimes fun jobs is being a courier where you actually get to travel with the artwork. You also handle the paperwork. So for museums, it's often loan agreements, contracts, for galleries you work on consignment and approval agreements. So you have to understand all the terms of the sale where the piece is located, you have to also validate the cataloging information. So you have to verify the year, the medium, and you're responsible for the insurance. So getting fine art insurance, reviewing policies, executing certificates of insurance. And so, yeah, you're responsible, you know, does it need to be framed? How is it framed? Conservation is also part of that working with a conservator. You know, if the painting needs to be fixed or dusted, so it's a really behind the scenes, but important job. The other thing that I really love about it is you get to work with art handlers and curators or art dealers, craters, fabricators, you know, the artists, you work really closely with them to understand, you know, the essence of the artwork and what, what can maybe change, you know, what is a condition issue versus inherent to the artwork. And then you're also responsible to condition check the artwork. And this is actually one of the reasons why I became a registrar is because when you're looking at artwork, you're all alone in the room with it with gloves and a flashlight. And you're seeing it in such an intimate way. Um, you look at the back of it, you know, the general public never gets to be that close to the artwork. And so it can be a really special moment, but also, you know, for several years, you know, inspecting painting and photography, you get adjusted to that. So sometimes I go to museum shows now, and I'm looking at a painting, you know, and I'm like, oh, it's really beautiful, but it's cracking in the upper left side. Yeah, so it's a big, big responsibility, but you get to have this kind of, I think, close relationship to objects that I think not many other people, you know, ever get to have that opportunity.
One of my, I think craziest stories I had to, um, courier, I was responsible to oversee a $150 million sculpture, get it from Hong Kong to New York. So that was one of my big and memorable courier trips. And because it was oversized, I had to fly in a cargo plane and, um, we had to stop in Alaska to fuel and so it was just me and the two pilots in this cargo plane and in Alaska, they let me sit up front for takeoff, which was really fun and nice and cool. And then we had fresh salmon to eat on the way. But it's not glamorous because you have to wait with it at the airport. And because after nine 11, the restrictions have kind of changed, but you could be at the airport. Like one time I was there for nine hours and you can't leave the piece. You know, being responsible for the insurance, you have to have eyes on it because if it is damaged, you know, the registrar's the one that writes the condition report reports the damage and advises on next steps.
[00:11:12] Ben: That's a lot of responsibility.
[00:11:14] Raina: Yeah and it's funny cause a lot of people don't know what a registrar is like you mentioned in the beginning and how I learned about it is my aunt, her best friend worked at the same museum in Erie and moved to New York and she was a registrar and and she had worked all over Andy Warhol museum in Pittsburgh and then in New York, and working for private collectors, but she introduced to me like what a registrar is and does, and had me meet with a bunch of registrars, I got right into the community. I was really lucky and I did an internship at ICP, it was really incredible to work there and handle all the photographs and see like all these original Weegee, photos and I just remember having this moment sitting there where I was thinking like, oh my God, I've seen this photo, like on the slides in high school, like on the screen and now I'm holding that thing itself. And I was just so like excited and moved by it. And so then an opportunity opened up at Pace to do inventory so I switched to Pace and did like a summer internship and, oversaw their inventory, which is super extensive, you know, Pace is like a museum, you know, the quality of work that they show and the amount that they have and the staff, you know, there's so many people.
[00:12:41] Ben: So, you know, you made that jump from the museum world to the gallery world pretty early in your career. Was it very different?
[00:12:50] Raina: Yeah, it was very much fast paced. Things move around so much for viewings. You know, there's so much art being hung all the time for clients to see the gallery shows switch every month. You know, museums plan, their shows, years in advance, um, you know, Pace is sending art to art fairs, they're installing it for clients every day. They have their own exhibitions. They have multiple locations in New York let alone around the world. And so yes, the, the fast paced newness of it, that was a learning curve. You know, I would have hours to work on condition reports, we didn't always have the luxury of time, but you know, the type of insurance that museums require, Pace has a very robust insurance policy that is on par if not more dynamic than museums. So having that background definitely helped, coming into that I already had a good understanding of that. Then you have the artwork selling. As a registrar, you know, you have to inspect the artwork every time it moves. So whether from location to location or before it goes out to a show or a client, or, you know, to the purchaser, you always have to inspect it. So most of my early career at Pace, was doing condition reports, you know, Chuck Close, Zhang Huan, Robert Irwin, all different types of artists and artworks, and so it was nice because I think that position was new at the time where I was supporting all of the registrars and how that structure works at Pace and I think most galleries is that most art dealers work with an artist. They have like their group of artists that they manage and at Pace, a registrar was assigned to an art dealer. So you had certain artists that you worked with specifically. But starting out as an assistant, I helped all of the registrars. So it was great in that sense I got to see all of the artists. Switching to digital media basically happened when Pace picked up Team Lab in 2014, and I became their registrar and they did their first show in 2014 at the Chelsea space, 508 and all of the years I had spent there, none of the procedures applied, you know, we have 45 projectors, you know, stuck in customs because customs doesn't classify it as art. There's a whole new slew of problems that arise, you know, technology obsolescence, everything's replaceable, you know, the same fine art insurance requirements don't apply. It's made of hundreds of components that are spread out all over the world that have to be consolidated. You need not only art handlers to install it, but AV integrators, engineers, you know, you need help from IT, electricians and basically I went to them and was like, we need to develop a new process for time-based media. At the time they started bringing on Drift and Random International, Leo Villareal and so I was the designated person for any time-based, performance-based kind of artist and that led me to form the media arts department, looking to what SF MoMA was doing and other museums, if you look on their website, you know, they have contemporary art and then they have media arts and it's become a completely separate category within museums.
And, you know, I thought Pace, always being, I think, at the forefront that was something that would greatly benefit them. And so creating a whole database, how you track equipment is kind of boring registrar stuff. Labeling it, how many replacements do you need and then, shipping it. We did this TeamLab tour, where we had this major ticketed show in Palo Alto in Silicon valley. And that show was up for about nine months. And then we basically reused the equipment from that show to realize a different set of artworks in London, and then did it again and paced Beijing and the way. That you had to ship everything this is when I learned so much because equipment isn't really acknowledged as a classification with customs. There's higher taxes for example, and I wrote a paper that got published on this, because I feel very passionate that governments and custom offices around the world really need to update their definition of artwork. Because if an artwork is assembled in the country versus ship there, the tax could be higher. If it's categorized electronics, the VAT could be way higher. So for example, in the UK, If you import an artwork, the VAT or the value added tax is 5%. However, if you import a television screen, then the VAT is 20%. If customs didn't agree with your statement, that it was an artwork, they would classify as electronics and the tax would be way higher. And there's this very famous case with Bill Viola and eventually, HMRC and the European union there's a major court case and they ended up overturning it. And I also write about that in my paper, but it's really, it's really interesting. I mean, to export electronic side of the country, a lot of times you have to do it on a Carnet, which is a really weird way to ship things, and it can only leave the country for one year and you have to document serial numbers, and so there's just a completely different process for this type of art. And I just got super into it and wanting to like figure it all out. For Pace and having the privilege to work with all these different artists who use different equipment. I learned a lot about how you install it the best way and what equipment is the best to use and just all this really kind of niche knowledge about it.
The inventorying system was definitely a big thing also. Like what is the art? Is it the software, you know, is it the TV screen it shown on, is it it all together? Insurance, ironically only consider it to be art when it's turned on and powered on. So just learning like all of these little not even little details, but just learning how to navigate electronics as art. I also had to work with our legal team to revise language. When you're dealing with digital art which is inherently easy to reproduce you have to protect the artists copyright. If we're loaning a digital file, to China or the Middle East or Europe, you know, how do you create this iron clad agreement to prevent people from saving it or archiving it or replicating it? That was actually a fun thing for me, was working with legal on the language. And I got really interested in blockchain technology early on because it feels like it could revolutionize collection management by providing, authenticity and provenance. And so yeah, you know, working with the artists on how do you protect their artwork? How do you maintain the longevity of it? A lot of artists, studios have a hard time keeping up with the changing technology. I mean, every six months there's like a new TV, you know, there's an OS update like, you know, every couple of months as well. And all of that affects the ability to run the artwork's software. I think also once Pace started selling it a lot, you know, it breaks down, digital, art time-based media, it requires maintenance, parts need to be replaced. and you know, I think dealing with clients who had never collected it before, we started doing troubleshooting tips, cause you want to empower the purchaser to know how to operate, and troubleshoot their machine. But you also like when the sales team's trying to sell it, they don't want it to seem too complicated. So for a period of time, a few of us, we felt like we kind of were doing customer service cause people would call. They'd be like, oh, this screen, you know, isn't working, blah, blah, blah. Oh, excuse me, sir. Um, did you try turning it off and on? and then that would work, and then that would kind of like also infuriate them that it was that easy of a fix. So you know, now we would create, client-friendly documentation that easily explained do these five steps and then call us if it's still not working. That post-sale is also specific to time-based media because once you sell a painting and it's installed, it might need conservation later, outdoor sculpture might need cleaning or maintenance, but that's all been figured out. Now it's a really interesting time that there are time-based media conservators, and there's, Matters in Media Art that SF MoMA and other museums put together. This handbook that's free and online, you know, now there's documents and advice that you can get, but back then you were just trying to figure it out, you know, one step at a time.
[00:22:46] Ben: They didn't teach you how to write technical troubleshooting manuals in registrar school. You know, it's so interesting to me that you eventually make this leap from doing registrar work to a director role which I would imagine is pretty unique. How did your work change when you transitioned from being a registrar to the director of their media arts program?
[00:23:10] Raina: I think I'd there about eight years at that point and I had worked on all of their shows, you know, like all of the Leo Villareal shows, at every Pace location. So from Palo Alto, Hong Kong, Pace, Beijing, and you know, I just pitched the idea to Mark and the COO and argued, you know, about why they needed a specific department dedicated to it. Like I said, each registrar is assigned to different artists. So I was, you know, wanted to be the kind of person there to help answer questions and guide based on my experience, but also implement and enforce these protocols for exhibitions and sales to make sure things go more smoothly and became more kind of client facing in the post-sale to educate them on, you know, the warranty if that's offered for artists, you know, a lot of this has terms and conditions applied to it. And so it took some pestering, but, after about six months, they agreed and, it actually became a good tool that when they were onboarding new artists, they were excited to hear that there was a media arts team dedicated, to that type of production and installation and display of it.
[00:24:34] Ben: That's incredible. Now you are in a director role at Superblue. So before we dive into that, what is Superblue?
[00:24:44] Raina: Superblue is a new enterprise dedicated to producing and presenting experiential and time-based art. It's been founded by Mark Glimpshire, the current president and CEO of Pace gallery and Molly Dent-brocklehurst who's the former president of Pace Gallery London. I had mentioned earlier about this TeamLab show in Silicon Valley for that show, you know, we sold tickets and at that time it was kind of taboo. I think paces kind of bashed in New York for selling tickets to his show. but meanwhile in Silicon Valley, everyone loved it. We had to extend it. I think we had, you know, 300,000 people come to their show and that was the first time that we bought scanners, you know, and scanned tickets.
So basically through that is like, one example and all of these other artists working, with cutting edge technology, Mark felt that this goal of advancing experiential art would be best achieved through having a company wholly dedicated to that goal. The end of 2019 is when the idea came together. And I actually continued to wear both hats as Pace and Superblue. And then, we have our first brick and mortar space in Miami. Which is currently open right now, it opened in May. And that's when I transitioned full-time to super blue, to focus on that show and implementing procedures and protocols that I did at Pace, you know, at Superblue and our Miami venue is 50,000 square foot space, and it's across the street from the Rubell collection and we took over this empty warehouse.
So for me, a big learning curve was building installations while building out the building and like permits and codes and all of that stuff. So anyways, but the inaugural exhibition features, TeamLab. So I had the privilege of working with them again. This time they're taking it to a whole new level, they have this brand new work that premiered called Massless Clouds. It's this mirrored room where clouds drop from the ceiling and then float and form and levitate and float around the space. And so you walk through it and, you know, TeamLab are known for their crazy, massive interactive, projection rooms so we have interactive flowers and waterfall room. And then there's also a James Turrell Ganzfeld piece and Es Devlin installation as well. So those are the three artists that we premiered the show with and there's also, you know, a gift shop and again, it's ticketed. So the business model of Superblue is the revenue generated from ticket sales. We do have a sales team that is selling, less objects and more site specific commissions for real estate developers, institutions kind of corporations, projects that are like embedding massive led walls into the landscape or sides of buildings. So it's not just selling, you know, a single channel artwork anymore. It's large immersive rooms that are often interactive. They can exist in different iterations and forms. The fires and waterfall room TeamLab has done this, at other venues and each time the scale is different. So we consider them to be experiential artworks that we treat and care for just as a painting. And so I think there's a difference between, I would say something like Meow Wolf or museum of Ice Cream, where it's more, about spectacle. We're trying to be spectacle with substance. The artists that we're working with have very important beliefs that they want to share with the world. And we want to be the catalyst to help them work larger, and showcase their work in new and innovative ways.
The goal is we have multiple experiential art centers all over the world coming soon. We'll be announcing the next one. But we have also one in London right now in the former Pace gallery space and Royal academy. So we have Miami and London right now, but the goal is, is that, Superblue, commissions artists to do these works and then they either tour to these other cities, or we lease them to museums or institutions, schools, universities, where, you know, they probably couldn't afford to produce an installation of that caliber, but, by ticket revenue and then leasing fees. We use it to commission artists to do new work that then goes out into the world. We don't want these to sit in storage. We want to keep them moving. We serve to compliment galleries and museums, not replace them. And, you know, some galleries can't support their artists to do large scale projects like we can, or museums can't afford some of these are high production costs. So we want to definitely bring it out into the world, you know, and share it, and help build this community and make it more accessible for everyone. The other point that I would like to make is that the artists that are featured in our exhibition they get royalties. So they get a percentage of the ticket revenue that's coming in. People are hungry for, experiences. It's no longer about ownership, right. It's about sharing an experience with someone that, you know, or love. Going in and out of like this COVID isolation, you know, people are really hungry to do something, but also human connection and all of our installations do cause you to consider yourself in space and in relationship to others as well, so I think it's been really well-received and inspiring for people that have been able to go see the show.
[00:31:10] Ben: Speaking of the pandemic, I would imagine that, you know, the past two years has really impacted your work, in the sense that, your work involves a lot of people in a space together. How has the pandemic impacted your work?
[00:31:28] Raina: Fortunately we were in the like early planning stages of it when COVID hit and everything shut down. And Miami has not been as strict, with COVID restrictions as other states, like New York. We did delay our opening, but it wasn't like we were about to open our doors, you know, like had built everything and hired everyone and then we had to close. So we were really fortunate in that way that we could rethink things and spend more time, figuring out visitor flow and, you know, Superblueis a linear path. So when we could reopen in a limited capacity, you know, everyone had space and the curatorial team, you know, they want people to enjoy it. Like we don't want to pack people into the venue where you can't even see the artwork. So there's a time ticketed system that's been implemented and the linear path. So that allowed us to open in Miami, in May, and continue to run, with some closings, as needed. It did, it slows things down, like obviously construction got slowed down, so that's how it affected us but I think we were actually really lucky because we weren't about to open, we were still in like the early plan, you know, we were doing like construction drawings. And our team is spread out, you know, in London and Miami and New York. So we were Zooming all the time anyways. You know, we're kind of fortunate compared to other companies. I feel that, you know, the timing for us didn't affect us much.
[00:33:04] Ben: So you mentioned crypto before, I'm curious, you know, is crypto and the whole NFT thing, changing, anything about your work and how your part of the art world works?
[00:33:19] Raina: I believe that NFTs are the medium and tool of the 21st century and we are only beginning to see what artists can do with it. I think it's going to transform not only art but the music industry, and really change the way we speak about art. I think it's gotten a bad rep because of, you know, the Beeple sale, you know, for $70 million, however, you know, Pace, started Pace Verso which is an NFT platform. They worked with Lucas Samaras, so there's NFTs of his work, but that also comes with the physical print. Superblue is also working on a strategy as well. In my own personal practice, as a curator, I've been working with some incredible artists who are working in 3d for the first time and thinking about how to move their work from 3d to 2d, how to exhibit it. I'm just really excited about the direction of it and I think the programmable aspect of it Is what artists I think should focus on and figure out and like how to make it more interactive. And I think this hybrid nature of digital and physical spaces, like having your art in the metaverse, but then also in a physical gallery, like on led walls and then seeing it, you know, at home on your screen, I think is really cool. That's what I'm most interested in, artists that are maybe creating in 3d, but then 3d printing it, and then scanning it and moving it back into 2d. You know, it's not just jPEGs or gifts, GIFs know that are being minted, it's like high quality artwork. And I think that certain platforms have that fine art edge. So I've also been connecting with different platforms to figure out, what they offer and yeah, just getting to know the nuances of it. It's become its own language. And I think like a week in the crypto space is like five years in normal time. Things are changing so fast, so I'm personally excited about it, but I do know a lot of the established artists, are hesitant, but, I do believe it's the medium of the 21st century think about Monet when he first got cadamine oil paint and then he only exclusively used that and told his students only to use that, you know, that was new technology, or the invention of photography. You know, then everyone was able to afford a camera and everyone became this amateur photographer. And then that changed the way painters were painting because they no longer had to depict reality as it was. So I think we're really on the brink of something new and exciting, and we can't even fathom where it's gonna go.
[00:36:12] Ben: Wow. Um, do you personally collect NFTs?
[00:36:15] Raina: Yeah I have a few.
[00:36:17] Ben: I think that you are so unique in the sense that you have. A pretty wide ranging experience as a professional on the gallery side, working in this very back of house you know, thankless role of a registrar, you're the person that really holds it all together, and now in your capacity as a director and doing this like massive experiential, and ambitious time-based art installations. So do you have any advice for any listeners that might be starting off their career looking to change careers that are interested in getting involved in the gallery side of time-based media art?
[00:36:56] Raina: Yeah, definitely. I think for me, going to a lot of conferences helped me build this network with people at SF MoMA and the MET and the Tate, to have like other people to bat ideas off and like, Hey, how would you handle this loan or this process? There's so many materials on the internet, now, but I think going to, conferences, whether it's virtual or in person can really educate you on what is the most, up-to-date, you know, tech, it's important to know the technology that's coming out, and how it's relevant and how it's changing and constantly evolving. And I think, reaching out to people and trying to connect in the tech sector, as well as the art world, it's kind of this unique crossover moment that's happening. And you know, for me, I always had some mentors along the way, so trying to find someone, to help kind of guide you through the process, but I definitely think conferences are a great way to network and learn so much about it. Some that are coming up South by Southwest, is one of them ARS Electronica, you know, always has great lectures and panels.
[00:38:12] Ben: So Raina what is coming next for you?
[00:38:17] Raina: I mean, it's confidential, you know, at super blue, um, what our next projects are. Um, I would say follow our Instagram and join our mailing list to see kind of what's coming next. Um, sorry that I can't give anything away at the moment.
[00:38:36] Ben: Ah, no exclusives? I am deeply crushed.
[00:38:41] Raina: I know. I'm so sorry.
[00:38:43] Ben: Awesome, Raina, well, thank you so, so much for joining me today. I really, appreciate your time.
[00:38:48] Raina: Ben, it's been such a pleasure speaking with you
[00:38:50] Ben: And as always, thank you, dear listener for joining us for this week's conversation. If you liked what you heard, please consider leaving a review that really helps other people discover the show and as always, if you want to keep the conversation going on the internet, you can find us @artobsolescence on Twitter and Instagram. Thank you so much for tuning in this week, friends. My name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.