Episode 036 Meriem Bennani

Show Notes

This week we’re visiting with artist Meriem Bennani – by popular demand! Meriem has been one of the most requested guests, and is a personal favorite, so we simply had to have her on the show. Meriem effortlessly weaves cartoonish slapstick humor into her videos and animations, even when she is taking on dead serious topics. Her work is accessible and inviting, and her work is equally at home on social media platforms as it is in major museum collections. In recent year’s Meriem’s work has grown in scale, developing into quite complex and ambitious site-specific installations. Tune in to hear the story of Meriem’s evolution as an artist, and a generous behind-the-scenes glimpse into her process and practice.

Links from the conversation with Meriem
> http://meriembennani.com
> Two Lizards: https://news.artnet.com/art-world/meriem-bennani-2-lizards-1839054
> Life on the Caps @ The Stoschek Collection: https://www.jsc.art/exhibitions/meriem-bennani/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past, present and future of art and technology. This week on the show, we have a very special guest. 

[00:00:13] Meriem: My name is Meriem Bennani and I am a Moroccan artists based in New York. 

[00:00:18] Ben: Meriem comes to us today by popular demand. A while back when I asked some of you on Twitter, who you would like to hear on the show, she was top of the list for more than a few of you and I personally have been a huge fan of Meriem's work for years. She's one of those artists who is just so deft and skilled in weaving cartoonish, slapstick humor into her work even when she is taking on dead serious topics. I'd seen from the sidelines that in recent years, Meriem's work has grown in scale, developing into relatively complex and ambitious site-specific installations, so I was especially excited to sit down with her and get a behind the scenes view into her practice and her evolution as an artist. Before we dive in just a reminder that equitably compensating artists, such as Meriem is a fundamental part of this show's mission. Thanks to the great generosity of our listeners. We've been able to provide $1,000 speaking fees to artists that come on the show. If you want to help support this work and are in a place to do so financially, there are two ways you can do. So if you're looking to make a one-time charitable gift, you can do so through the lovely folks at the New York foundation For The Arts, or if a small, monthly contribution is more your speed. We have a Patreon, links are in the show notes for both of those, and if you're not in a place to give but still want to help support, leaving a review for the show is free and actually really makes a big difference in helping other people discover the show. But no matter what thank you for being here and tuning in. I appreciate it. Now without further delay, let's dive into this week's chat with Meriem Bennani.

[00:01:48] Meriem: It sounds a bit cliche, but, I always kind of knew that I wanted to be an artist. Throughout my childhood I was always drawing and like writing stories. That evolved later way later into video installation and sculpture, but I feel like this kind of relationship I have to make in my work and the pleasure, I feel making things is something that feels very familiar and has been there forever. My parents were very supportive and they are also pretty artistic, and creative and, always supported it. So, I think it just kind of added to, you know, my creativity, to have access or support and like positive reinforcement. I first went to art school in Paris. Going to Paris itself for college, wasn't like a crazy thing. Most people in my French school, in Rabat are Moroccans who were also going to college in France or Canada or, you know, Spain, if they could afford it of course. Going to art school was the thing that was maybe a bit, you know, kind of different or like I knew that it wasn't the easiest path maybe to choose to be an artist. I was kind of like nerdy, you know, like I, was a good student. And I was really serious about work so I think my parents knew that when I decided to go to art school and be an artist it wasn't as like a rebellious or like, you know what I mean? Like that sounds fun kind of decision. They knew that I was Like, very serious about it. And for them, like, they were also very smart and like tried to learn about like, what are ways that you can basically like make money. They just wanted me to be okay, you know, and like independent. They did their research and I did as well, also learned pretty quickly that you can specialize in something, become a designer, you know what I mean? Like, that made it feel less scary. I always thought that as an artist, I would be someone who makes drawings. But my school in France was, um, like the school of decorative arts, there's like different sections, different specialties. And I was really into drawing. And I thought I would go to the illustration major, but I realized, that's something I already do and I wanted to learn something new. So I went for the animation major. There are like a couple of things that made me want to do that. The first thing is I always loved computers since I was a teen. The second we had a computer at the house I would spend hours on Photoshop and like learning programs and stuff. So I kind of wanted to do something where I would have to use computers. But then also, like, I was obsessed with cartoons my whole childhood. When we got Cartoon Network, I just remember all those moments, and like, I watched a lot of cartoons until very late. So I was excited to do animation, but in my French school, actually the college that I went to the animation, like it was very about experimental animation stop motion which I think is amazing, but I was more looking at, you know, just like American stuff in terms of just like aesthetically and the humor, that had more influence on me. You know, I was exploring that because that's what I wanted to do, but I couldn't fully go into that and like make it my own. So then, you know, like I learned how to animate, I tested stop motion, a hand drawn cartoon animated video. I'm really grateful for learning all these things. And then I had kind of like a weird path basically, like it's a five-year school, like an MFA equivalent. On the fourth year you do a internship and you do an exchange. And so I really, really wanted to be in New York. And the reason for that is just because I had met someone on MySpace that was in New York, that I was dating. And I like went to New York and I loved it so much. I just felt like really good there because, of course I was so lucky to be able to go study in Paris, but it wasn't a decision. It was kind of like what everyone did. When I arrived in New York, I was like, wait, this is kind of like a first adult choice, this is a place I choose to live in because I like it. So I applied for an exchange and at the time the exchange was with SVA. So I did like six months at SVA, I had a studio, which was cool, cause I was in fine arts and like, that's what I wanted to do is quote unquote fine arts, you know. Then I did an internship, someone who became really quickly, my best friend, like has a production company here and like a green screen studio. And so since I did After Effects, he took me for an internship. And then like after a year here, I didn't want to go back for my last year in my French school. So I applied to Cooper Union because it was free like my French school. you know, it's like, I couldn't afford to go to an American college, after being in a really . Great free school in France, it made no sense, you know? Then I was able to have a visa and be in school here and stay in America. Because I had one year left in the school in Paris, and again, it's like a really great school. So it would have been a shame to like do four years and then just like leave. I asked my teachers in animation. If I could do it from a distance for a year, for the last year so I stayed here and I did Cooper Union. And then at Cooper, I started making these drawings. I was really excited to just like, be surrounded by people who wanted to be artists and do crits. To make money, I was freelancing for that same friend, my friend, Ryan who's like giving me jobs, although like, I wouldn't know how to do something and he would be like, just figure it out, watch a tutorial. I finished Cooper after two years and a half, and then for years, that's how I made money I was a freelance After Effects, motion graphics person. And That's how I learned kind of like more and more, you know. I was still making drawings and stuff and, this was kind of like when Instagram started having the option to post a video, which, you know, I hate being tied to Instagram in this way, I really don't care about it for it is just a, you know, a platform of sharing, but I remember that I was like, I'm learning how to play with like video for all these jobs. But what if I played with videos, like on my own, you know, just like, you know, manipulate something, remove something from a video or add something. I would make this kind of like silly manipulations of videos, post them and like get very positive feedback. there's something about video that has so much more impact, at least to me than the drawings I was making at the time, because the drawings were very stylized and very cartoon but, like through my style of drawing, I feel like the images I was trying to depict were very processed. And you would lose that link with reality that maybe like touched you in a certain way. The drawings were very much about drawing about the art world, like very art school you know? And I actually, I never really liked art school or like, was interested in making work about that. So like quickly, I was like, I want to make work about the, like the things around me, kind of like, open up to the world more and video was a great way to do that.

[00:08:34] Ben: One of the things that I just love about your work has been your, really sharp sense of humor and the way that although your work is humorous, you really use that as a vehicle for sometimes talking about some like, really serious, really heavy stuff. I'm curious, you know, for you, did you have to like unlearn seriousness at a certain point or was that just always natural for you?

[00:08:57] Meriem: That's a really good question. As you were saying, I always thought art should be serious. I always liked comedy and cartoons, like I said, but I wouldn't say that like in a friend group, they're like, oh, Miriam, she's like super funny. I'm not funny, like a performance way. Like I'm not like right there just making jokes all the time. I feel like it's something that in my natural approach to a scene or to a character animation or a subject that is the angle that I enter from. Probably like you sharpen that skill as you go, but like, it's not something that I like work towards. Like I want to learn to have a funny and humorous approach to these things. I think it's very on an intuitive level that I think we all have default, right? Like some people's default will be very dramatic. Some people's default would be like more emotional. and for me, I realized that my gaze on subjects that I've chosen to work on has been in a range from, funny to like tender and like emotional, in that range and maybe it's not how I look at everything, but maybe it's the range that makes me want to film, you know, like some people in my family that I filmed, that's how I feel about them and that is a feeling that makes me excited to do something. I'm not sure, you know. Obviously it's useful humor is the oldest trick, right? And again, like I don't do it as a conscious manipulative strategy. I want to go look at art and like, I want to have an emotional experience, whether I'm entertained at first or like something feels transformative, I want to feel something in my body and emotionally. That's what I kind of like try to infer with my work. For it to have like, an emotional impact. Of course, you know, there's like a lot of political and social issues that I'm interested in that are very obvious in the work, but I'm not so much interested in this didactic approach to these things. I'm interested in how do these issues, whatever they are, depending on the work, how do they make people feel? You know? That's all I know. That's what I'm interested in. So it can be humor. It can be like any type of emotion. 

[00:11:11] Ben: I love going behind the scenes, so to speak with artists because you know, everyone's practice and rituals and just studio, it's always different. For you, what does your studio look like? You know, do you work with anyone or do you prefer to work alone? 

[00:11:27] Meriem: Well, I don't have a studio. I work from home and I always have the thought in my mind that maybe I should like organize differently and like have a studio space. But the reality is that I'm really cozy. Most of my work is on my laptop. All the sculptural elements in my work. come for specific exhibitions. So if I know that I'm making an installation for the first time, somewhere like a sculpture that will usually be fabricated, either on the location or in the fabricators studio and shop. I'm always researching mostly when I'm in between projects and I'm always researching and there's like little things I get like kind of obsessed with and that is how projects form. It's usually like different unrelated things I'm interested in that kind of like come together in one project. I don't necessarily start because I already have a show planned sometimes I do, you know? But I just start going with an idea and it develops into a project and then if it happens at the same time as like a good, a new commission, then it becomes a project for that commission. And if the commission happens a bit later, then I find the context for it. And that allows for it to have financial support, which has 90% of the time gone towards making sculptures or building screens for multiple channel installation. Yeah, so that's kind of how it works. I do like the freedom. I have friends or I see artists who have full studios and sometimes I'm like, wait, is this is the goal, you know? But then I'm like, wait, I would be so stressed. Maybe later if my work progresses or like maybe the scale of things changes I will need to have a studio and like, that will be me, but the idea of having people on salary, like having to pay people. It means that now I'm responsible for some people's livelihood on top of mine and that my work is connected to that and maybe I'm being very romantic and idealistic, you know, but I have kind of like so much freedom of movement in trying to always feel like very close to that initial reason why I made work before economy of the art world in my life, you know, and I need to feel that otherwise I'm depressed and I don't want to be an artist. So I understand that it's a job and like I do enjoy that, I can only make art because it makes enough money that I don't have to do freelance anymore. I like the perks of the commercial aspect of the work in some ways, but I don't want them to dictate the work. I want to always be in that sweet spot where I can like. Just be like this whole exhibition is going to be one installation, instead of multiple works. And I think, yeah, like if people depended on me to pay them, like I would feel very stressed. People waiting around for me to kind of tell them what to do is just not a good psychological place for me. I'm learning to delegate. I just started working with like a really amazing person who is an artist and a student and she helps me with emails that already was like a huge deal for me. And then I see artists doing like a lot of exhibitions for less time than I have that are already like have assistants and stuff like that. I think it's a personality type, you know. In the work that I do, like, it's really hard for me to like break it down to different segments. To be like, oh, this could be done by someone else, and this is how I organize my thoughts, and maybe I don't need to do this part. It's so internal. Sometimes the idea of slowing down to break it down to understand what I can delegate or do with someone else I'm like, I could just do it instead of like figuring it out, you know. Maybe it's not sustainable, but recently I had this thing happened where, I just got my green card and I was supposed to not get it for another five months. Like my lawyer was like, could take a year. And I have shows coming in Europe that are multiple channel, hard to install, never installed them with a crew, you know, like it just, I work with AV person on location. So I'm the only person who knows how to do it. Unless I've made a manual before for an acquisition. It's like only I have done it before and I'm like, okay, here we go like, I have to find someone who can go do it for me. Let's say there's two shows, right. Instead of teaching one person in Amsterdam, and one person in the UK, why don't I hire someone and teach them all of it and they can do both and now that person can work for me whenever I need, in Europe. And that felt like, I'm finding efficiency tools. What for? The only thing it means if I teach this person to install shows while I'm here, is that I can do more shows. Right. And I'm like but why do more shows? I think in one way, it's generous to do more shows because then I don't do just like the big cities and like maybe like smaller cities in Europe or something like that. People can go see work and I love that, but really it doesn't make me that happy. To do a show just for the sake of a show, like, I need you to be excited to go and install and like have an interaction. I'm not trying to just like spread, take over as many kunsthalles. I think it's cool that people do that. I'm happy that like, I get to see people's work who maybe are like more generous with sharing their work. I don't want to sound like snobby about it or like, I want to keep it super precious. It's really not about that. It's just about, like, whenever it goes into that zone or territory of like how to multiply things, like what is a good way to take a piece and make it like 10 versions of it that can sell, you know, I get so existential, it makes me very depressed. And of course, you know, like I'm down to simplify a sculpture if that means a collector can buy it and I can keep making work without being stressed. But I don't know. It's a fine balance, I guess. 

[00:17:25] Ben: I'm sure no day is alike, but I'm curious if you can kind of take us inside your process, what does a day in the life of Meriem look like?

[00:17:37] Meriem: A day in my life is that I like to sleep. If I don't sleep at least eight hours, I'm useless. And I don't go to bed early. So, like say, I wake up around 9, 9 30 with an alarm. I have coffee and then I feel like I get coffee high. That's usually prime time for ideas. There's like this like very small window, very good window for creativity, but it's usually the time that I sit down and go through like all emails. I've tried to structure my week differently, so I don't do emails every morning, I want to have that energy sometimes, wake up and just right away, be able to like work. Not bureaucratic, like just do the work. Monday is like my zooms and calls and, emails and so I would say if I described the day without that it's just me on the computer honesty. Doing research or if I'm editing something I'll be just on the computer a lot of different hours. I love cooking. That's also why I like working from home. Like I love food and I love cooking because I feel like for me, mostly, since I've been doing a lot of work on the computer, it's become this like break from the digital world and like having more sensual experience. Everyday, I kind of try to like, have a moment where I'm like cutting things and frying them and like, you know, just smelling and then, this is very granny, but I nap almost every day, very Mediterranean. My parents do that too. I nap around 5:00 PM and then like, I wake up again and it's like a brain reset and then like, I can really work. Usually if I'm doing something like writing something where you really need to be in the zone, like if I'm writing or editing, but the part of editing where you make story decisions, not just technical stuff I feel like that really happens after that 4:00 PM nap and like through the night, that's like kind of like a moment I love. But if I'm doing animation or things where I'm following, like the creative decision has been made. I listen to a lot of music or I'll listen to stuff as I work, I work out, but not that much, that really helps. I'm an Aries I have so much energy. So like sitting down can be hard for me I mean, I can focus for hours if I'm animating, but I feel like working out has been a very healthy, new habit and very transformative in, I mean, it sounds annoying, but in terms of like feeling inspired after working out with my mind is so clear sometimes, and that's also a good time to work. At night I either go to dinner or go out or sometimes for days I'll stay here and I'll watch movies and so, you know, it's not that exciting. It's just like a lot of work and it's a bit nonstop. I've been better at trying to like have a weekend, take the weekends off. So I'm learning to do these things and like not think of work as like the ultimate goal of my life and like learn to prioritize other stuff. 

[00:20:28] Ben: Oh my gosh. Do you want to be my coach?

[00:20:31] Meriem: I'm not saying it's working. Okay my new thing is I love working on Sundays. Tell me what you think, but sometimes like right now, this week is amazing. Cause everyone is in Venice for the biennial. I'm like, wait, why is this week so open? I've just been having too many zooms and emails it's just really stressful because I'm also not someone that can just let an email linger. I just feel like I, unless I do them, I can And I feel like Sunday is kind of like the only day That belongs to me fully where I'm like working full vacuum. You know, like I'm not supposed to answer emails or anything, so it's been like my favorite day, mostly for writing and things where you have to be focused. Something that actually I'm trying to never do that again, but it's very much, what defines my days. I usually work on like a few things in one day. it's really rare that I take a full days for one project. I switched gears a lot and I think I lose a lot of energy doing that.

[00:21:31] Ben: So, as somebody who has known your work for many years and been following along, it was just, so weird and also awesome to see the viral moment that your an Orian Barki 's video series Two Lizards had, you know, I mean, it went totally viral, like pretty mainstream. I'm curious, what that was like for you as an artist? That, I'm guessing, was the first time, your work has gone kind of mainstream. What did that mean to you? What was that like?

[00:22:00] Meriem: I think the most meaningful thing that happened from that collaboration is collaboration first, you know? Just like getting out of my zone where I'm in control of everything, which, you know, how it is in the art world. It's like you're pretty free to do whatever you want. Versus like maybe the film world where you have to like pitch and justify every choice. it just doesn't function like that and I think that after a few years of doing shows and just like deciding everything, having to kind of share with someone that space of decision-making was really hard and also made me a better person and it was amazing. But I just want to go back to how the series started. It wasn't supposed to be anything. It wasn't even supposed to be a series. It was the first week of the pandemic. It was like super weird. Everyone was curious about what was going on. We didn't really understand anything, you know? It was like a moment where it felt like something so huge was happening that it was hard to focus on deadlines. Her and I we've never worked together before, but she makes documentaries and I've been really close to her work. She's been real close to my work. Meaning that in her documentary practice, we always chat about what she's doing and like, you know, we talk while she's making decisions in editing, she always makes a pass on like the edit of most my videos, because she's a professional editor. She's helped me so much learn about storytelling, so we were already like, very aware of each other's work in that way. But then like never worked together. And then that weekend, we were like, we don't feel like working on our things, why don't we just do something for fun? And I had downloaded these 3d models on TurboSquid of anthropomorphic animals ready to animate. It was for another project. And I was like, why don't we do a little scene that feels very existential, but with animated animals. That was kind of like the intention. I showed her the animals. She was like, oh, I like the lizards. So we made the two lizards. That afternoon we had the conversation that's in the first episode where I was telling her like, oh my God, I know that this is crazy with everything that's going on, maybe it's fucked up, but I feel so excited about being confined and like having time to do all these things. And then she was like, oh, that's such a quarantine week one thing to say. That's kind of like the dialogue and the first episode. And so we posted that thing and then like, it got so much enthusiasm and I think it was just a moment where everyone was on their phone, you know. Then we were like, wow, like people love this and we had so much fun working together. It was kind of like six years of knowing each other, culminating in something in small way, you know, just a little vignette, but her approach to documentary with my approach, to animation, it felt kind of exciting for us to find this technique. Then we made one more and one more, and then it was like a series. And people were like, OK when's the next one. There's so much pressure because these are so wildly circulated now, that we can't fuck up. Like it needs to be good and there was a point actually in the middle where it became really hard. I was like really stressed and tired. We weren't forced to do it, but we felt like we had to keep going and we were loving it, but all of a sudden, it needs to get better and also, the episodes were like three to five minutes in animation that's a lot of work. It's just the two of us Orian like she learned how to lip sync, I taught her on the 3d program, but I was animating and she was editing, like, we were working so hard, it was intense and like now it feels like such a weird time, like such a capsule, you know, when I look back. The cool thing also was that we have a lot of friends who make music and, you know, we're all isolated and kind of like miss being together so they kept being like, Hey, can I score an episode? It was a way of working with friends. We would send them a quick edit and then, then they would make a track. And then we would like, in two days, things that usually would take a month, you know, we're like, okay, I have all day, I'm going to make a track for you. We like casted all our friends to be in it. And like, rather than like fully script things, we would kind of interview them and based on that, like make an edit and that would be what we'd be in the episode. So it was a cool moment. And the best thing that came out of it is to know that Orian and I can work together and we have this animation style now that we could tell more stories with.

[00:26:13] Ben: It seems like, although a good deal of your work is single channel video or films, and can be sometimes collected as such that, at least lately, it seems like your installations have gotten quite ambitious and site-specific even, or just very particular. You know, for instance, I'm thinking of, Party on The Caps, the show you did at the Stoschek collection. I'm curious how that translates into how you, are thinking about the long-term care of your work and you know, how you package things up, and document them for acquisition or re exhibition. You've been speaking to this a bit in terms of, keeping things small and hands on. But of course once things leave the studio and somebody collects it, it's a bit different. So have you had, the case where you need to create that kind of documentation for an acquisition.

[00:27:06] Meriem: Yes. And I felt like I worked for Ikea, making like a manual. It's so boring, but actually once I started doing it, I get really into it. I like that part of my work actually. Whenever I do an installation or a sculpture I draw it all in the 3d program and I love the part where I make a full PDF with everything mentioned, materials and, I do like those aspects. They feel almost calming and meditative, like doing the dishes, you know, like you don't have to come up with creative decisions, which is the most difficult thing. You're just being precise and trying to communicate something so that it can be as close to possible as what you want. And what do you realize really fast when you make a manual is you think about your death. The first thing on the page of my manual. If I'm alive, or like, if I'm around, or able to come install at preferred that you call me and I come do it myself. I'm really bad at delegating, but otherwise here's a manual and I say that because for example, you know, Party on The Caps, you referenced, the Stoschek installation. So that actually is an installation that I first made for the biennial of moving image in Geneva in 2008. And then it traveled to Turin and then it traveled to Stoschek, and then there's the version also that I showed at Clearing, my gallery in Brooklyn and we rebuilt it because that first version was in Europe, you know? So we made a new iteration, so, you know, every time it looks completely different. There's a few elements. It's kind of like a pieces of a puzzle, they can be arranged differently. And I love like re-drawing them to look completely different every time, to be site-specific and different. So, for example, as Stoschek, there's these big columns in the middle of the space that are very challenging for installation, I just decided to project on them and bring them into the installation. So if you follow the manual, it will look like my work, but if I can be there, I love the idea that I can always change stuff, you know, and like use the architecture differently. Or sometimes I add a screen that's a rear projection. Sometimes I add like messages in the back, little things that, like, as you go through space feel wording to find, and special and add to the world, because it's so much about world building with the Caps project, for example. I am not good at small-scale I think. Even like when I draw, I can't draw on a small piece of paper. I have a pretty like dramatic or like, YOLO kind of personality when it comes to scale. Like, if I have a party, I like to invite a lot of people. If I make food, I'll make a lot, you know, like, if a screen can be as big as possible and like, maybe that's tacky, but I love it because if it's going to be a show and you come out of your house, I like to experience that it feels different, or exciting, in these very, maybe childish ways. I love installing and like, I always forget it until like I'm back on an installation and I love feeling the architecture and making sculptures, you can sit in and like, creating these physical elements that add to the experience of watching the video. I think that's like a very fun space for me. And of course, you know, I'm very comfortable online. But I don't want that to be my goal. I ideally would love to keep making exhibitions that have a very kind of physical implications, you know, like that make it interesting to leave your house, to see a space or have an experience, you know, but if I didn't do that, if I make film, which I really am focusing on right now, and it's really like what I'm excited about, I don't want it to be little videos for social media platform. I want to make, you know, movies that can be seen properly or like, or ripped and like, seen by everyone, but not for a platform 

[00:30:55] Ben: Yeah. So thinking about those larger installations, is there a sort of dream project that you have in your mind that you've been kind of like dying to do, but you're just waiting for the right space.

[00:31:09] Meriem: No, I feel like, I've been really lucky pretty early in my work to have institutions trust me, budgetwise to make ambitious installation. I think I've been lucky in that way. And then I kinda like just went for it and made just like ambitious sculptures in terms of like technically how to make them, but also the scale. For my last show, I kind of like had an opposite reaction of wanting to take a second and not build objects. The last chapter of my trilogy project Life On The Caps is a co-commission between Nottingham Contemporary and Renaissance Society. So I showed it at Renaissance Society in Chicago, it's about to close and then I'm installing it soon at Nottingham. And I had this impulse that I wanted the budget of the film to go towards the film. Usually I do almost everything on my own for the filming. So there's never really a budget for film and then exhibition budget goes towards building the installations. And I wanted to have all of the budget be for the video, because I don't know, maybe it's a pandemic reaction, but I realized I've made a few installations at this point and they are these big objects. It doesn't feel environmentally great. You know what I mean? When they get acquired at that scale, it's institutional acquisitions. I'm like, that's really exciting because then they have a purpose kind of, but it feels, I don't know, it feels like these big objects after COVID. I was like, I prefer to pay people and work with people and collaborate with people for a second. Okay. it might change. It was just like a moment. There is one sculpture that I've been trying to make for years. It doesn't require that much space it's really just about the technical aspect. Do you know the Van de Graaff generator? It looks like a big metal sphere and it's like a static electricity and it makes all your hair go up. So there's this very silly sculpture I drew a while ago that, you know, I always make seating for my videos. That like all the seats would have a Vandergriff on like the only way you can sit on the chair is like that your hands touch it. And so I just have this image of people sitting at my show that are back lit and like everyone's hair is like up in the air. It looks like they have a physical reaction to my films. I started working on it for my last show at Ghebaly which is the gallery I work with in LA, this amazing person, Joe, like who was doing all the sculptures. He really researched it because he wanted to make it work. But it's actually really complicated because every time you touch it afterwards, you need to be, how do you call that? you do touch something so that the electricity comes out of you otherwise, it's very dangerous. So I haven't been able to make it yet. One day. 

[00:33:53] Ben: Someday it will happen and I will laugh hysterically when I see it. That is such a funny image. 

[00:34:00] Meriem: You'll be sitting on that chair maybe. 

[00:34:04] Ben: Oh my goodness. You are comparatively speaking still early in your career as an artist, but nonetheless, you know, we've talked about documentation as it relates to conservation. But I'm curious if you've encountered any challenges with the conservation yet. 

[00:34:20] Meriem: Maybe in a few years, I'll be like, everything stopped working, but I haven't had any complaints so far. I think the challenge, not in terms of conservation, but like in general is a lot of sculptures I've made and installations are way too complicated. I always tell people I'm like, I'm sorry in advance and they're like, oh, it's totally fine, and then like three days in they're like, oh my God. It's very complicated and I feel like I need to kind of simplify things. That's why also I took a break from the multiple channel. Every time I have to install it, it's like doing a full new show. And I was like, if I just toured all these installations. I wouldn't have time to make new work ever, unless I did the thing where I send people. So the conservation challenges in terms of file formats, I'm really interested in what people, you know, conservators kind of like project in terms of formats. And what's really interesting is to see that we really have no idea what we were talking about. I remember, one of the first time I sold a piece to a museum or a piece ever, I went to the conservator, with my little hard drive I was just like, so curious, you know, cause there's like different video files and I gave them an After Effects project cause that's where I do my mapping and then he was like, okay, no way, it can't work like that. So I had to, be like, okay, I can only, give the video files and they have to do the mapping on whatever program they want. They don't have to use after effects like me. It's just so crazy that we are, depending on these decisions, you know, in terms of the file formats we use. What I wonder is like, is a conservator thinking of 20 years as like a half second, like what scale are they thinking about? I think I started dealing with acquisition logistics right after they stopped asking for artists to have a Beta tape, you know, there's so many questions that feel very obsolete. But I find it helpful for them to say like the ideal way that you want to show this mostly for my single channel, because my installations it's like, self-explanatory, they need to be installed for the single channels. For example, I really don't like them to be on TV screens in headphones. I like them to be like a certain minimum size. So I'm happy to be able to just express that. 

[00:36:34] Ben: I'm curious if you have any advice for any up and coming artists, listening to the show.

[00:36:40] Meriem: Oh, it's really hard for me to put my self in a position of advice giving. Maybe a piece of advice that I'm giving myself and other people, as I'm still learning to practice it, is like, I feel like there's such a thing among artists of being like, oh, I work all the time. My work never stops, you know, like there's no retirement, no weekends and it's kind of like a cool thing to say, almost a competition. And I, I really, really want to shut down this part of myself. I think that it does become a job in a way and like, I think it's really important to make time for other things and like learn to enjoy other things and have other practices, and I'm not saying I'm doing it successfully, but I want that. I wanna like more often go on like a two week vacation where I'm really not bringing my computer, things like that. So that's my advice, I guess. Those are things that I'm trying to do, you know myself. 

[00:37:35] Ben: So what is coming next for you?

[00:37:38] Meriem: I am installing the last chapter of my cat's trilogy called life on the crabs at Nottingham contemporary the first week of may. Then I am working on a sculpture for the Highline that will open at the end of June. It's a new experiment, so we'll see. 

[00:37:56] Ben: Awesome. Well, Meriem Bennani thank you so much for your time and your generosity. It's been so great to get to know you and hear more of your story.

[00:38:05] Meriem: Thank you so much for having me Ben for your very thoughtful questions.

[00:38:08] Ben: And thank you, dear listener for joining us for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it and if you did, how about you leave us a review? It's free. I would really appreciate it. It helps other people discover the show, and as always, you can find the full transcript for this show at artandobsolescence.com as well as highlights on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence have a great week. My friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.