Episode 038 Mia Matthias

Show Notes

This week we’re visiting with brilliant curator and writer Mia Matthias. Mia’s current role is as a curatorial assistant at the Whitney Museum of American Art, but not for long. No spoilers, but Mia shared some very exciting news during our conversation, and you’ll just have to tune in to find out what it is. Mia’s background, training, and the collection of experiences she’s accrued over the years is incredibly interdisciplinary – integrating linguistics, anthropology, and computer science into her vibrant practice. Tune in to hear Mia’s story!

Links from the conversation with Mia
> The Studio Museum: https://studiomuseum.org/
> Mia on Faith Ringold: https://www.moma.org/magazine/articles/342
> The Life-Cycle of a Software Based Work of Art: https://voca.network/blog/2018/02/02/the-life-cycle-of-a-software-based-work-of-art/
> Mia’s co-presentation of her graduate work on the Guggenheim’s CCBA initiative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNgqLLMn7ps

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries this is Art and Obsolescence, I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology. This week on the show, we are chatting with a curator. 

[00:00:14] Mia: Hi, my name is Mia Matthias and I'm a curator and writer living in New York City. 

[00:00:19] Ben: Mia is currently a curatorial assistant at the Whitney Museum of American Art, but not for long, no spoilers, but Mia shared some very exciting news during our conversation, but you will just have to listen to the whole chat to find out what it is. That's not why I had her on the show though I wanted to chat with Mia, as in the world of curators, working in the field of time-based media and just contemporary art more broadly she just has one of the most richly interdisciplinary backgrounds I've ever seen. During her undergraduate studies, she somehow found a way to meld majors in linguistics and anthropology with a minor in French and computer science. I think as you'll hear in our chat, this broad approach shines through, and it's also led to numerous enriching mentorship relationships for Mia as we'll hear. Before we dive in, I wanted to recognize that Mia is the first Curatorial Assistant we've had on the show. This role in institutions is so incredibly vital museums all over the world would grind to a halt without it. And yet these kinds of back of house roles often don't get proper recognition in my opinion and many people don't even know they exist. So I wanted to start off by having Mia elaborate for us. What does a Curatorial Assistant do? 

[00:01:37] Mia: I personally think of this role as akin to an apprenticeship of sorts, because I think that curating is something you learn by doing and the way that it feels and manifests in practice is very different from what you might think in theory. So it was really important for me to work with curators that I admire so that I could see how they approach building exhibitions, making publications, maintaining relationships with artists and behaving as a go-between often between institutions that have certain goals and artists who have other interests and goals. So I felt I could only learn that by aligning myself with people whose work I admired, and that's how it kind of functions to me within the greater ecosystem and zooming into the actual nitty gritty of what the day-to-day looks like and the function is within an institution, I've worked in large institutions so it feels specific to that context. I would say that it's probably analogous to a project manager in other companies and institutions, because it feels as if a curatorial assistant has to manage all of the deadlines across departments and kind of keep the project moving on the ground level. So it's less often of the large conceptual work. There is an ideating phase, but when it comes to actually producing things and making sure that they get where they're going, that texts are handed in on time, that they're being edited, that materials have been ordered, that everyone knows where to be at what time that feels very much in the curatorial assistance realm. And it's also a job where you, I think have the fun opportunity to do a lot of deep research. So I often find myself pulling materials from archives and kind of providing backup for the conceptual theoretical work that's happening in an exhibition or in a publication. And I do think it's worth noting that every institution is structured differently. So in some institutions, there are curatorial assistants and there are administrative assistants and there's division of labor there. In other institutions, those jobs are merged. So that will just affect what one is doing on a day-to-day basis. 

[00:04:17] Ben: Now, before we dive in fully to I have a quick favor to ask, if you are enjoying the show pretty please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts it really helps other people discover the show and it helps in my fundraising efforts to ensure we have a budget to equitably compensate artist guests. Thanks so much to those of you who have already left glowing reviews. For instance, here's one from last week from virtual_emily: " I considered quitting my job to enroll in a degree program, more narrowly focused on how time-based media is approached in other institutions, but this podcast became the source of everything I really needed to know and saved me at least $40,000 in additional student debt." Well, there, you have it folks, art and obsolescence podcasts cheaper than grad school and hopefully more fun. Just kidding. Sort of. Anyway. Let's dive in to this week's chat with Mia Mathias. 

[00:05:07] Mia: I have always been interested in art, but I don't think that I had a firm grasp of what curators do. I didn't really understand that as a viable career path. So while I went to museums, I actually didn't think very much about who decided which paintings to include or which works to include or how this performance program was conceptualized until I took a number of contemporary art courses in my junior year of college and being completely transparent, I took them to satisfy a French requirement. I was a few courses away from having a French minor and taking these contemporary art courses would satisfy it. So I did that and I ended up going to a number of different galleries and I went to museums that were showing much more conceptual, contemporary art and performances and that felt very different from what I had encountered at the MET and maybe at institutions where the work covers a much wider time period. So that was my introduction to new forms of art that were outside of the bounds of the more traditional. Ideas of what art could be, the ideas that I held at least. It also introduced me to the art ecosystem. So hadn't thought of going to galleries in my free time before that period and then after that, I started doing that in my free time and I ended up getting an arts internship with a non-profit and that was a very small community. It was very hands on. You just showed up and helped out in whatever way you could. And I loved that. So I think that the people who took me on as an intern with little to no experience were very influential, as well as my professors who carted us around to museums and galleries, because that was how I got exposure to the type of work that I'm doing now. And that's why I kind of expanded my horizons past, you know, just thinking of Starry Night as the end all and be all of fine art. I think a lot of things came out of me having to do certain courses. So I took an anthropology course to fulfill a requirement and I had not really thought of that discipline as something that I wanted to pursue before that but when I started to learn about studying people and cultures that felt really exciting to me and I kind of delved into it. My plan was to go to law school. So there are a lot of different ways that you can approach that. And I felt like I had a lot of freedom in undergrad to just take whatever courses that I felt were interesting as long as I kind of made it to this end goal of going to law school, which spoiler I didn't. One of the career paths that they often share to folks who are majoring in anthropology is going into museums, that felt like an important introduction to the idea that I could work in museums with this degree. I will say though, that after taking several more courses in anthropology, I really started to question the discipline, the history of it, and the approaches to gleaning data from people. And it's a really charged field. And I also took courses with people who were true, armchair anthropologists, kind of making claims about people from afar and I became a little bit disenchanted with that. So there are different branches of anthropology and that includes linguistic anthropology. So I had kind of this peripheral understanding of linguistics and an incredible professor that I worked with Dr. Renee Blake, at NYU was the mentor figure that I needed at that time, she is a brilliant Black woman and she was doing incredible work in socio-linguistics. That's almost like the bridge between linguistic anthropology and social linguistics. There's a lot of overlap there, different approaches, but through working with her, I just started to gravitate more towards the linguistics department and I started to share ideas with her and write papers with her and just very smoothly made the transition so that I was doing the joint anthropology and linguistics major. when I think about it, it feels like the work that I did there has had a huge impact on my career. And maybe it's not as straightforward as solely studying art history, but I often think about oral history for instance, when I think about working with artists and historical data and being able to preserve people's ideas and their intentions for their work for the museum's archive or collection. And I often work with artists who are really interested in breaking down major ideas into the nitty gritty granular components, which feels a lot like the work that I did with linguistics. So it really does feel like it informs my curatorial work. I also feel that a lot of folks that I work with from curators to artists they're thinking about art history, but they're also drawing inspiration from a variety of places. So when someone comes to me and they're you know, saying that they saw a documentary and they're trying to, draw inspiration from that place, it feels as if I have a really wide foundation 

[00:10:52] Ben: That's great. I love that. You mentioned that little non-profit, it sounds like that's kind of where your art career began. But I guess the path of curation is super hyper-specific. What was it that ultimately led you down the path of curation in particular? 

[00:11:09] Mia: Yeah, it is such a niche career. And I would say that I did a fellowship that was specific to curatorial work. And before that, I felt like I had a sense that I wanted to work in the arts. And I worked at an art advisory, which was much more on the commercial end. My first internship experiences in the nonprofit world piqued my interest but my fellowship was really what gave me the exposure that I needed because I was able to work on exhibitions from beginning to end. And I was able to also do a lot of deep research and work really closely with curators to see like how they approach this from every single angle. So from the part where it's just a concept that's floating around to honing it into something that has somewhat of a thesis that has there's a point to why we're going to Mount the show or create this book then going to all of the artists and working with them to understand what they would want to show, how they fit into the exhibition, or maybe don't fit into the exhibition and then ultimately creating something out of nothing. And this experience that people can walk through and feel impacted by and contribute to and respond to that felt so influential in my choosing to pursue this career path. So I would credit my fellowship with the exposure and giving me the understanding of what this career is before that it felt a little bit more ambiguous and I wasn't sure I necessarily wanted to pursue curatorial work. 

[00:12:48] Ben: Time-based media it seems has really become somewhat of a specialty of yours. Where did your interest in time-based media come from?

[00:12:57] Mia: Again, from a course that I took. It's incredible because I think back on all of the professors I had and the mentors that I've had and people who saw that I had an interest in something and just kind of blew the doors wide open for me, and I credit them with everything. So I was taking a number of computer science and web programming courses in college. And I worked with professor Deena Engel who is, just a really brilliant mind and has worked with museums and institutions for a very long time, and really worked to create some of the databases that museums still use today. And she brought me on board to work with time-based media conservation. So there was a project in which students were able to work on preserving and documenting certain time-based media works that were potentially facing some kind of obsolescence. So the technology that they originally created on may not have necessarily been readily available, or the programs that were used were no longer able to function. And this project involved working with a number of students who were very much computer scientists who could go into the code and reprogram it for new contexts. I did not have that foundation. I was never the best computer science student, but I did have a lot of curiosity about it and I was really interested in conceptually what these works were and if they were fundamentally changing, if you were to kind of bring them over to a new piece of equipment or to change the code that the artists had originally written. So I worked on the qualitative side of documenting the original intentions and speaking with the artists to kind of understand what was necessary to maintain and what was flexible and that varies by artists and by artwork. So for some people it's extremely important that it is shown on the exact same monitor, but they don't care if the code is completely different. Whereas for someone else, the most important part of it might be that the code is as close to the original code as possible, but it can be shown on a flat screen or on a projector or however a new context might require it to be shown. So that was fascinating to me, it made me very aware of how malleable and precarious a lot of artworks are. Especially time-based media works, where someone might make something on Flash and then all of a sudden it can't play on my laptop right now. So what happens, do you just kind of let it float off into ephemeral internet space or is there a way to preserve that experience and is that even something that artists wants? So that was a really important experience for me and I still carry a lot of my findings and the conversations that I had then today in how I approach speaking with people about how they want to preserve their work or how they want it to be experienced by future generations. The work that I was doing with anthropology and linguistics, I did an oral history apprenticeship. It felt as if I use that skillset for the conservation work for being able to document and understand intention and have kind of the lowest touch possible with an artist and an artwork. But I feel like I should add that my work in social linguistics at the time, I was really interested specifically in how language moved through social media and online communities. So I was specifically looking at how Black community spaces are created and maintained on Twitter, which necessitated that I take web programming and computer science courses to better understand how to build certain programs and collect data. So it feels as if there were a lot of happenstance moments and this all coalesced, but really, I think that my work in linguistics with Renee kind of brought me to those courses and then my work with Deena brought me to this time-based media focus. 

The fellowship I alluded to earlier, it was a two year fellowship across the studio museum in Harlem and the museum of modern art. So I spent one year at each institution and at Studio, I worked with the permanent collection and the curatorial department and at MoMA. I worked in the department of painting and sculpture, primarily with collection shows. What's interesting is I actually started at MoMA and then went to Studio. So I had this really like huge institutional experience where I worked in one department that was one of several departments and MoMA is just operating on a really large scale it's MoMA. So felt like, a completely different experience than what I had necessarily expected because I had kind of applied to go to Studio specifically. But it was really incredible. I was able to work with really brilliant curators there who were so, so nurturing towards me and who also really, really cared about giving me an experience that would help me make a decision about this field. So if I were sitting at my desk and they were going downstairs to condition check, or see an artwork that had just come in, they would just grab me and we would head downstairs together and I would just spend hours wandering the galleries in the morning before the museum opened, before crowds arrived with really, really seminal important artworks. And I would be able to have my own moment with them. Just kind of understanding why is this work important to me, not just in general. So I would say it was very influential in that way. So MoMA gave me this incredible experience of working on exhibitions and with amazing artists and artworks and curators. I worked with Cara Manes and Paulina Pobocha and, Anne Temkin. Cara and Anne were making a show that was pulling from everything that Agnes Gund had donated to MoMA, which is a very, very rich collection of work. And it was called The Studio Visit the Selected Gifts of Agnes Gund. And it was just a really, really fun show to work on. Something that I love doing I don't know why I love it so much, but I love working with models and chips. When I worked on these shows at MoMA they created an entire model of the exhibition space at scale, but it's a tiny model. And then they create all of these tiny, intricate chips of every single artwork. And you get to kind of work within the model to place things and figure out where walls will be placed and what, how artworks will be hung in relation to each other. And there are inevitably changes when you actually bring this to fruition and you're standing in the room, but it often does end up, you do end up seeing the transition from this tiny, like beautiful, perfect world into actuality. And that is just so exciting to me. And I still have chips from each of the shows that I worked on on my desk because I love them so much. I am definitely partial to tiny stuff, you know, I think some people just really like seeing miniatures, but it is so fun, especially when the parts move correctly. Like I have Brancusi's fish That is like this huge marble sculpture and it can spin on its base but because of how precious these artworks have become, you're not allowed to spin it anymore. So it always feels a little bit sad that this work has become more precious than its function almost so were he alive? He'd want it to be mobile or have the potential for mobility, but because we need to now preserve it forever. It is static. However, the tiny maquette can still spin and I love using that as a little fidget toy on my desk when I'm working. And yeah, so Ann and Cara were both so generous and it was incredible to meet Aggie and just have this amazing collection to work from. It's just actually so insane to just be able to pull a Martin Puryear sculpture or a Rauschenberg, especially at that level or hang, an incredible, nine foot large drawing. So I felt very humbled and also excited by that experience. Then I worked with Paulina Pobocha on the Constantin Brancusi show, and that was again, not what I had imagined because it's very much more towards modern art. It is a modern art and not necessarily contemporary art. Paulina is just a master of placing sculptures and being able to see how she understands space and how one moves throughout the space and will interact with these objects felt really important. And I also had the opportunity to basically one spend so much of my time in the MoMA archives, going through everything remotely related to Brancusi, which was a lot because they have a really long history with this artist. But I also went to Paris and was able to see his studio at the Pompidou where it's been recreated. And it just felt like I got this really holistic understanding of working with archives as opposed to living artists and how one really just has to do your due diligence and exhaust every possible essay that's been written, all the shows that proceeded it and, go through every single piece of paper memo. Minutes from a meeting that mentioned this person. And then once you lay that foundation, you can see whether you can create something new or something important that adds to the conversation. So I got very lucky with that team. I have to say that like some of my most exciting moments were working with the exhibition design teams and the conservation teams, it's like the, these are the legends in the field. So just to see how they approach something and to be in the room with them is such an honor and I think people often don't think about yes, obviously MoMA has a ton of resources. Like these large institutions have a ton of resources, but the people making this machine function are so good at what they do and that felt like the perfect exposure for me at that point.

However I was specifically seeking the community centric, mission specific foundation that Studio has. And then I went to Studio and Studio was also incredible. It's just the people who have gone through that institution. It's just this incredible roster of thinkers and the exhibitions that have happened. There are exhibitions that I still regularly go back to those catalogs and read those essays and consult those checklists. I had, and have been a huge fan of the studio museum for a very long time. Before I started working at Studio, I would go to their shows and they would have uptown Fridays where they would hold a dance party in the courtyard and it just felt like this dream institution and it just really does feel like the pinnacle of Black arts in New York City and maybe even in a wider range, but I can only speak to my personal experience. And I remember thinking that I just wanted to work there. So when I saw that there was a fellowship open, I found it on their website one night while just scrolling through their website as one does, when you are a little bit obsessive about these things and immediately applied. Studio really gave me a deep rootedness in my own community. At the time I worked at Studio the museum had closed for renovation. So it's currently still closed and they're building an entirely new building. So I didn't have the experience of working in the old museum. Because of that shift, there was a really strong commitment to community engagement, which felt really valuable because I was also, and still am living in Harlem. So we ended up working with different community centers around Harlem to place reproductions of the permanent collection in community spaces, which led to me attending meetings at community centers and meeting folks who ran the business improvement district and folks who kind of kept these community spaces alive and introducing myself and working with the permanent collection team to bring pieces of the studio collection to the community. And that felt invaluable, and it still feels like something that is very different from what I do on a daily basis right now, but really changed my experience to my community. I would wander down the street to go grocery shopping and run into people who I was just in a meeting with that week. And it gave me a better understanding of how to integrate the museum's work into the community at large. So that felt closer to some of the work that I'd done with nonprofits in the past. And it really kind of broke down some of the boundaries that I think we get caught up in from within institutions about, behaving as if you're in a vacuum and not as if you are situated within a community that you need to give back to and have this symbiotic relationship with. So I would say that was a really important takeaway from Studio. And the other thing I would say is just the Studio has an incredible, incredible archive, just gems all around. So being able to access that and flip through publications that are no longer in print and see notes from, folks that I admire so much to each other just that are very intimate and I just also so appreciate the time that I had and was able to kind of run around and digitize some of that archive and learn what the people who are my heroes were doing decades ago.

[00:27:56] Ben: You eventually wind up at the Whitney, so I'm curious to hear like a, how that happened. and also just what your role is today.

[00:28:05] Mia: I specifically wanted to work with Adrienne Edwards who's a curator at the Whitney. I had seen her shows and read her writing and just really admired the work that she was doing and is still doing. So I applied to the Whitney on that basis. If anyone is trying to pursue a career in this field, I really do recommend seeking out exhibitions and publications that excite you and then looking at who curated them and then going to those people. Because I think too often folks are focused on the specific institution or the branding around that and I think that it really is more about who you work with because they're going to have a huge influence on your approach whether you like it or not. So if you end up in a place that maybe it looks great on paper, but you're working with someone who you don't necessarily want to work in the same style that will change the artists that you have access to and the conversations that you're having. So I specifically sought out Adrienne Edwards and her work and I got the job as curatorial assistant with her, which felt really exciting because I had this incredible experience at the Studio Museum and at MoMA and I was largely though working with the permanent collections there and while that gave me a really strong foundation in understanding how to preserve artworks and how to draw internally from the existing collection to build theses for shows, I had a strong desire to work with artists more intimately, and also to work with artists who are working across mediums, which is exactly what Adrian does. She is very interdisciplinary in her approach. And that's something that I found really important because the artists that I was in conversation with weren't necessarily thinking, okay, I want to make something for the painting and sculpture department, or I want to make something for the photography department. They were often working across mediums. So it might've been an installation that included video and some performance or you know a collage that also could be activated in a certain way. So I was really drawn to being able to integrate and incorporate dynamism into exhibition making. So working with Adrienne and here at the Whitney has really offered that I've been able to work with really incredible performance artists and with artists who just have a really expensive idea of what their work can be and just be in conversation with them very directly and I was really craving that, especially after working with histories more than with people. I really wanted to be able to just turn to someone and say, well, what do you want? And have them respond in that moment. Working with performance especially feels like it offers such possibility because the arc from the conceptual idea of it all and those initial conversations to what actually happens it's such a journey. And oftentimes someone can even change their mind the day of the performance based on their mood, based on how they're feeling about the work based on the crowd that has come to see the work. So there's never a sense that this artwork is static. It always feels like it has the potential to change and that's really exciting to me. There's a rush of seeing a performance begin and as the person who worked on it, not knowing what's about to happen, it just feels like everyone is in for a ride. So I just really value that about my experience at the Whitney, because it felt like the perfect compliment to everything that I had done before, it offered me relationships with artists who I really respect. It offered me the opportunity to work closely with a curator who I really respect. And like we were saying earlier about, being in the room with brilliant minds there are other curators and peers at the Whitney who have been so influential in what I want to do in the future. Just being able to be in the same room with folks who have been in this field for decades and who have such an intimate understanding of this landscape feels really, really important to me. So that's also something that I've really valued about. The Whitney is just other people who are in the departments in the museum and my peers who I consider a cohort who are all going on to do incredible things. And I think I'll be friends with them for the rest of my career and life and yeah, just brilliant minds all around. 

[00:33:02] Ben: Thinking about your career so far, I guess what projects stand out to you? Like what have been either favorites or the things that you've learned the most from.

[00:33:13] Mia: Not to, cop out, but it's like choosing a favorite child, really. I think that I am just the sum of all of these experiences and even the projects that at the time felt like they wouldn't necessarily be what I wanted to do in the long-term have had a great impact, like going back to my studies in school and how I draw on those experiences all the time in this field. I'm grateful for every single project that I've worked on because I've learned from every single one of them. And that feels like a really important part of this field is I think just being open to different kinds of experiences because you really, at least I, I'll use I statements here, I really don't know until I try. For instance, I worked on a photography show here at the Whitney, which was with another curator named Carrie Springer. And it was looking at the work of the Kamoinge workshop and it had originated at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, and I just don't have a ton of expertise necessarily in photography, but I was really interested in the subject matter and I had to just do so much work on my own time to make sure that I could contribute to this project in a way that was meaningful and to understand the medium. And I ended up just having an incredible time working with the artists involved. They are my elders, they're Black artists who were working as a collective largely in Harlem. Like I would walk by places where they were meeting and. I just felt that those phone conversations that I had with those artists and building those relationships was just invaluable to me. I treasure those relationships so much and it gave me a better understanding of why I do the work that I do sometimes because it's specifically humbling to work with folks who have not received their due, at least not to the scale that I think that they deserve. And it also felt really special to be able to work with artists who justifiably have skeptical attitudes towards institutions and have operated outside of some of these larger systems for a long time and build a bridge and create an environment that they feel comfortable contributing to. And again, like I said earlier, just the curators that I was able to work with and be in the room with were incredible from Carrie Springer, who was at the Whitney at the time to Dr. Sarah Eckhardt, who is at the VMFA I road tripped down to Virginia to Richmond to see the exhibition there. This was like in the height of COVID too. But just to be able to meet the work and speak to the originator of this exhibition and spent hours with Sarah, just going through. Each artist, their relationships to each other, to their work, their families, how their art has changed where they are now. And that just felt so special to me, especially once I, you know, made it home and was working on this exhibition in the midst of many protests in New York City and working with material that had been made in the midst of other protests and periods of racial violence. And then be able to call a Black elder and hear their opinion and feel like I was a part of a lineage. That's not an exhibition that I necessarily knew I would work on coming into this position, but it's one that has had a great impact on me and I feel that way about every single project that I've been a part of. So I really can't choose. 

[00:37:12] Ben: Relatively speaking, of course you are early in your career. Is there a sort of dream project of yours that you haven't had the chance to work on yet that you kind of fantasize about? Maybe when you're playing with your miniatures?

[00:37:26] Mia: Yeah, I mean, I think. I have a few exhibition ideas floating around. You know, If I could pull on any work in the world and host in any exhibition space, I would definitely try to make happen. But I think in terms of the next steps, I am, bittersweet going to wrap up my time at the Whitney and I will be heading off to be an assistant curator, which feels very exciting. I'm going to a private collection this summer, and I'm really, really looking forward to working with this particular collection because it is just a treasure trove and the team is incredible and it just feels like the right time to make this step and it feels like it'll draw on all of the experiences that we just discussed so I feel, both excited and nervous. But I also feel prepared to start moving into a different phase of my curatorial career. So I am looking forward to it and, you know, maybe I'll come back on the podcast at some point in the future and I'll have a lot of new stories to share.

[00:38:37] Ben: I would love that. Mia thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting. It was great to get to know your story.

[00:38:43] Mia: Thank you for having me. This was so fun. My first podcast experience. 

[00:38:48] Ben: And thank you, dear listener for joining me for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, and you want to help support our work and mission of equitably compensating artists. You can join us over at patreon.com/artobsolescence, or if you are interested in making a one-time tax deductible gift through our fiscal sponsor, the New York Foundation for the Arts you can do so at artandobsolescence.com/donate. And there, you can also find the show notes and full transcript as well as highlights on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence have a great week my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.