Episode 041 Gaby Wijers

Show Notes

This week’s show features Gaby Wijers – with origins in documenting performance art in the 80s and 90s, as well as leading work in the early 2000s at Montevideo, an important Dutch video art orgnization – Gaby has played an incredibly important role in the ecosystem of time-based media art conservation over several decades, always in very close collaboration with artists, and long before the field of “time-based media conservation” as we know it today really existed. When she founded LIMA in 2013 she and her colleagues created a much needed sort of hybrid organization – a non-profit dedicated to the conservation of media art, but one that is entrepreneurial, and today provides a-la-carte services to more than fifty collections of time-based media art. Tune in to hear Gaby’s story!

Links from the conversation with Gaby
> https://www.li-ma.nl/lima/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past, present, and future of art and technology. This week on the show we are chatting with someone who has been passionately dedicated to preservation for many years. 

[00:00:19] Gaby: Hi, I'm Gabby Wijers and I'm director of LIMA in Amsterdam. 

[00:00:24] Ben: With her origins in documenting performance art in the eighties and nineties as well as leading work in the early two thousands at an important Dutch video art organization called Montevideo, Gaby has played an incredibly important role in the ecosystem of time-based media, art conservation, over several decades, always in very close collaboration with artists and long before the field of quote unquote time-based media conservation as we know it today really existed. When she founded LIMA in 2013, she and her colleagues created a much needed sort of hybrid organization. A nonprofit dedicated to the conservation of media art, but one that is entrepreneurial and today provides a-la-carte services to more than 50 collections of time-based media art. It was such a treat to chat with Gaby and get to know her story and I'm so thrilled to share it with you all this week. 

Before we dive in, though, I want to send a huge shout out and thank you to all of you that are leaving glowing reviews for the show. It's always great to hear from all of you and your reviews, really help other people discover the show, which in turn helps in my fundraising efforts to ensure that we have a budget to equitably compensate artists, guests. If you haven't reviewed the show yet, I hope you'll take a second to do so, and if you leave a comment on your review, you might just hear it on the air. Now without further delay, let's dive into this week's chat with Gaby Wijers. 

[00:01:52] Gaby: I grew up in Nijmegen south east at the German border. I was fascinated by texts, and books and old manuscripts and one of my friends had a secondhand bookshop, but a really high level one. And in my holidays, as a teenager I helped making the catalog for the sales. And for the fairs and I think whole atmosphere and the whole dealing with objects, the passion not necessarily for profit really spoke to me and I thought, Oh, this could be a nice profession. I went to, to work in a public library. And when I worked a year at this public library or around a year, then I thought, okay, I, yes. Okay, I'm gonna do this, uh, this studies now. So I did three year training, full time being trained as a librarian. And then I went to work in the city library. Of Deventer, and this is a special library. This is the scientific library. Deventer has the oldest collection of Europe in that surrounding, there were in that area, there were many monasteries and old universities and Athenaeumbibliotheek, Athenaeum library, had the inventory of all these monasteries. But at the same time, it was also a library with the regional function. So all the students came down. So there was a huge diversity of of material and customers. And I also at a certain point was engaged in a theater I was part of a group of people in this small town, uh, Deventer that was very enthusiastic and programming, all kinds of activities. It was an alternative theater, but we also collaborated with the city theater and Deventer is in the neighborhood of an art academy. So I was very much involved in more object theater and dance. And then indeed showing these pieces, inviting these artists over to talk about their work and to present the work. And during the daily business, I worked a librarian. Later on there also, I came in contact with media art because the students from the art academy and also the places I worked with were always sort of combined mixed everything photography with pop culture, with concerts, with literature, with theater, and also contemporary art. But this was just a very brief connection. I was not deeply involved. I was still more into theater and from there I went at a certain point to Amsterdam and became Part of the theater Institute, not the Institute that's related to the university, but the Institute, that's more based in practice where the theater of the Netherlands of all the theater groups and the profession is promoted internationally and also there's a huge collection of photography, films, sound recordings, costumes, posters, all you can think of. And there, I was in charge for the mapping of this material, and how to describe a theater piece and how it can be restaged. Yeah, It was really great. It was also a time of exploring these things were rather new. Having everything in a computer at that time was really new. There was a lot of international exchange, but also if I look back on it now in it's super old fashioned with hard disks as big as laser discs. We mapped all the premiers in the Netherlands with the whole cast and so on. And we documented the Dutch theater there was a section for puppetry. There was a section for cabaret and opera. dance and so on. It was quite a big institution with a really large collection and a lot of work done for the field to actually, and nowadays, I think in 2012, the funding for these kind of institutions, like for Netherlands Media Art Institute was stopped. And this collection is now part of the university collection here in Amsterdam, but I was in charge there and at a certain point also was head of collection, till I think mid nineties or late nineties. So it's a, it's quite a while ago. That's where I come from I come very much with hands-on from the fields. In performance arts I was very much interested in design. I was interested in technology. I was interested in restaging, so I was very much at that side of performance art in the theater Making recordings of theater plays and video recordings and sound recordings was also something that the theater Institute did. So I was very much familiar, very well familiar with the field of video recordings and audio recordings. And the theater Institute had also a huge equipment pool and a technical staff. And at a certain point I thought I go and do something totally different. So I quit and took the time and what I did is I changed environment for more performance art and theater, to contemporary art and media art. I worked for the Stedelijk Museum, I worked for the van Gogh Museum, other museums, and at a certain point, I did an exhibition at the Quadriennial in Prague, an exhibition about theater, architecture, technology, and design. And there was a special item in a magazine. And the guy who run this magazine was the business leader at Montevideo. Montevideo was a grassroots organization that started late seventies in Amsterdam, founded by René Coelho, and it was a production company or a gallery, also a lot of media artworks was produced and presented. And then the question was, if I could come over to talk about the possibilities to make, the catalog for Montevideo for their distribution collection. Montevideo was very much into producing new works and also exhibiting them and finding the fields to present and support because they also supported artists and they supported institution. They also had a huge equipment pool that could be hired and was shared amongst the museums, but also amongst the artists. And they had, facilities for technical support or editing facilities, an artist in residency and so on. Montevideo was a highly technical organization where a lot of works were produced and presented but it had not a huge exhibition space, but it has really it's its role in promoting this new art form and presenting this art form in Amsterdam. But also world wide, like EAI but the other hand is the real technical facilities. Of course, Montevideo also had a library, facilities to watch all the videos to look up all the documentation, but also the artists in residency programs, the educational programs. So from this grassroots organization that it was in the seventies, in two thousands until 2012, it was a well funded institution funded by the state. Montevideo officially was called Montevideo time-based arts, and it was the national institute for media art. Over time they changed their name in the Netherlands Media Art Institute, but that took maybe 20 years. 

[00:11:20] Ben: Something that's really interesting to me is that so far this is in a lot of ways before the field of time-based media, art conservation, as we know it today even had begun to emerge. So by the time it starts to, in terms of museums and institutionalized spaces and the real formalization of the field, you had been deeply involved in all of these different ways for so many years. What was it like for you to see this field begin to emerge in different ways? And, what was your perspective and what did you first start to see emerge in the time-based media conservation fields? Broadly speaking?

[00:12:00] Gaby: When I came on board at Montevideo time-based arts, the first phase of video art preservation had already started or was already done. I was acquainted to make that more accessible and to also make the works that were preserved at that time accessible and usable and being out there and presentable again. In the beginning there was so much misunderstanding and, uh, cultures were so super different where Montevideo was one could say an artist driven organization and also supporting artists. From their own needs, they started preservation because they had to present the artworks and in contact with the artists, but also with the field. I know my colleagues went to Bay Area Video Coalition ages ago to see two conferences and we also started in the beginning, lots of international projects to explore how to preserve these type of works. At one hand, from the artist's perspective where changing the work is quite common, maybe to present it again as a distributor or as an agency, every new presentation might be a new iteration where from a institutional perspective as a museum often especially at that time, it should not be changed. Now it's far more recognized that these type of works often change or have this variability and they need it to stay alive. While at that time that was still very different. I wanted to say it's different now, but might be not. In the eighties, the let's say original video was presented in the exhibition. Now often computer based works are presented without a backup. So Yeah, some things we learned, but not necessarily practicing it. I think at that time also these new forms of art were not so well accepted within the institutions. Was not so mainstream in art venues. institutions like Montevideo and many others were more like alternatives to the mainstream, to the gallery system. And also were often more innovative. 

[00:14:43] Ben: So. Eventually NIMK comes to an end, and you establish a new organization, which you are still running and you are the director of called LIMA, I'm curious if you could share, what happened there what necessitated that change and how is LIMA functionally different from what NIMK was?

[00:15:05] Gaby: One of the issues was that these supporting institutions where Montevideo was so important and played such a key role in the development of the artists, of the genre, but also of the whole field of media art preservation at a certain point due to budget cuts, all the supporting institutions in the Netherlands were hundred percent cut of budget. I said with some colleagues, okay, what we have is unique, not only the collections and supporting the artists, but also the knowledge to preserve the works and to be able to activate works and present them over time. And we could use that to offer to others. Lima is Different in the sense that we are very much focusing on the continuation of media artworks. We are not producing or yeah, maybe producing three works a year, so I call that we're not producing. That's not our focus. Our focus is presenting works over time. So the continuation of media artworks, we have two lines. One is the agency, the distribution, we support artists in the promotion and presentation of the works worldwide. And the other line is preservation where we look for sustainable access and ways of sustainable presentations for these works and these services for preservation we also offer to others and we have about 50 collections that make use of these services in the Netherlands and sometimes also collections from abroad. For instance Bonnefanten museum in Maastricht. In Maastricht was the Jan Van Eyck Academie, they have a media art collection and they outsource the main maintenance and the storage to us. There are many other museum collections in the Netherlands that collaborate with us. And next to that, a lot of private collectors and corporate collections also store their works to us. And sometimes these are only a few media artworks and sometimes it's really a large volume with incredible experimental media artworks. All our technicians are trained as artists. So we have four not full time, but we have some are dedicated to video. Analog and digital. Some of them are more into the whole digital and sustaining complex digital artworks. And some of them are more into research, looking for new ways to maintain or sustain the works. We have our own technical infrastructure and it's also maintained by a whole group of technicians and yeah, it works very well. We are now at a moment, we are updating that because the collections are growing, the amount of collections are growing, the diversity of the types of artworks is growing. The volume of works are growing. So also our infrastructure needed an update like it does every five, to seven, to ten years it needs an update of course.

[00:18:45] Ben: Not to totally nerd out, but I just have to know how much storage capacity does LIMA have right now?

[00:18:51] Gaby: I think it's three petabyte. 

[00:18:53] Ben: Wow. That's a lot of media art.

[00:18:57] Gaby: In an institution like this, you also have multiple copies for sustainability and safety. we still store on LTO it's data tape, and we have multiple copies. We store the presentation files on the server with of course backups and we also make files in a lower resolution with the watermark and excerpts and fragments and stills for online use. And we have some online catalogs where also some of the museums or some of the collections are participating. I think what is unique is that we share what we have in the sense that private collectors, corporate collections, and museums collaborate with Lima since none of them, have a media art conservator on board. As far as I'm aware, only the Stedelijk Museum in the Netherlands is the only museum in the Netherlands that has a dedicated media art conservator. The rest of the institutions really need some extra support to have this collection that are still struggling with, because it needs an other attention and continuous attention and they outsource that to us. That's more effective than everyone on its own. Also researching for new technologies or new types of artworks, how to preserve them. Think of, for instance, VR works, we are requested to do some research and come with a proposal, how to preserve it. And it's not only the collections, but also the networks. So one of the other things I think is very unique or very particular to LIMA is that it's not a huge Institute, but, it's very much a network organization. And we are also, in some networks or node in some networks. For instance, the network for the digital infrastructure in Netherlands, where institutions as the Royal Library and the National Archives, but also hundreds of other institutions are participating, developing knowledge and tools and services, and also sharing resources. There's another network, for the conservation of contemporary art, we are also very much involved in that one and from both sides we get questions and we do research and supporting this. So at one hand, it's very much related to ICT and library, archival infrastructures, and procedures and standards. At the other hand, there is the field of contemporary art preservation, where we also are deeply involved. For me, it makes it super interesting because for both sides, it's very important to keep on board. I also think what is important is that if a collection outsources, the maintenance of the artworks to us, of course, we take care of the artworks, but we don't own them. The collection still keeps in charge. They are not offering these works to LIMA so there are some institutions where you can go to safeguard your collection, but then you collection will be taken over by the other institution, and this is not what we do. 

[00:22:34] Ben: It seems you're quite entrepreneurial and there have been projects that have developed into services over the years. And one of those that I was curious if you could share with us is called Art Host. And, I believe that actually grew out of a collaboration with an artist. So could you share what that is for our listeners? 

[00:22:52] Gaby: Yeah, sure. Art Host we developed, on request, but also in collaboration with artists, mainly with Constant Dullaart. Constant Dullaart is known for his online artworks, his net artworks, and there was this need for maintaining the artwork and outsourcing the maintenance of these artworks and hosting these artworks. So we developed an infrastructure to do so. We ask the artists for the source code, we take over the domain name, we host the domain name, we make documentation about the functionality of the work and, the appearance and how it should function and make some documentation. And we store and control and monitor the work. So we don't harvest. We have everything on the server side. This gives quite a stable situation where information and all the data and the artwork is maintained and sustained. So that's a quite unique service we have. Many artists are putting their work into Art Host and also asking the people that buy the work to keep it hosted in Art Host. 

[00:24:15] Ben: So if I'm a collector of net art and I forget to renew my domain names a lot, it sounds like that would be a good thing for me to use? 

[00:24:22] Gaby: Yes, yes. 

[00:24:23] Ben: Got it. 

[00:24:24] Gaby: Yep. If people are interested, they can look it up on the website or otherwise contact us and we can tell all about it. 

[00:24:32] Ben: All of this that you're sharing in terms of the services that LIMA provides is super fascinating. Because you are a non-profit organization that receives public funding, but you also provide services. And I think that that's very unique within our field. I can see how there's a lot of unique strengths in being this sort of interesting hybrid of an organization where you're able to receive grants and so on, but also you are quite entrepreneurial in providing much, much needed services for people. Are there any unique challenges that come with that model?

[00:25:10] Gaby: Yes, I think so. Of course sustainability or digital sustainability, but I think any sustainability goes with, a financial input over time. And this is challenging since of course the institutions pay a sum for the work to be done, but this is not a commercial some, but this is how we can do it. But next to that to grow and to do research and to get to next step of next level, we do need support. And at the moment this support relies partly on project funding. And that's a risk since after a project, a new project would be started and so on. So, it would be even better if taking care of the. Collections and investing in developing and sharing knowledge would be better funded by the state or by the same institutions that fund the museums because it's also very profitable for the museums that their works will be possible on display overtime. It's not only about equipment. It is not only about the artworks. It's not only about the technical infrastructure, but it's also about the knowledge and the people that have to be educated and lifelong learning programs actually to keep on track. This is a lifelong task and one of the issues that the moment of course is that the first generation video technicians is retired or going to retire. And also a lot of artists and technicians that worked computer based. So how to gather this knowledge, how to transfer this knowledge to a new generation and also how to give context to, old equipments or technologies or artworks. This is quite a challenge. It's something where really a lot of attention should go and it doesn't. So there's still not that much attention for media art in academic programs or within the cultural, digital heritage infrastructure. it's still always a niche. Although museums do have serious amount of media artworks at the moment. But I think it's time that there should be more collaborative efforts to put that better on the map that it needs attention and to give it a proper attention also investment is needed. I'm speaking about LIMA because I'm directing Lima, but I see it everywhere. And I see it in every country. This week I had visitors from Hong Kong. I had visitors from Budapest and they are all looking for ways how to maintain, sustain their media art collections. 

[00:28:21] Ben: How has Lima changed and evolved over the years?

[00:28:25] Gaby: The volume changed. I started with talking about our technicians, but of course we also have curators, we have a junior curator, we have a junior restorer, we have a junior conservator, and we have a junior registrar. So that changed in the beginning. We did not put a lot of emphasis on presentations, but it also meant that the work we do and also the artworks we present all over the world were not so visible in the Netherlands or in Amsterdam. that changed. We put serious effort in programs, historical, but also very recent actual programs here in our own building and in other places, making shows, exhibitions, we for instance, made a canon of digital art. We selected with a group of people, the 20 media artworks that everyone should know and documented these works and at the same time also critically reflected on the whole question of canonizing, critically reflecting on what we do. And hopefully now next year it will be possible to exhibit this collection. Next to that collection of key works also some interpretations because that's also what LIMA does, re-interpretation program, where we encourage students and artists to reinterpret media artworks, and then discuss how they did it and why and exchange. So we go to different practices, from theater and performance art, music also, and mix that with the practice of media art preservation, or one could better say maybe activation of media artworks or performing the archive. It's a perfect way to reactivate the knowledge that belongs to the artwork or why the artwork is part of what was it at the time, what function, how it was received, what was the technology, the social surrounding everything. So restaging, reenacting, reinterpreting is a very good way to do that. Next year LIMA is, 10 years? young. And over time we, uh, we grew and putting more time and more effort also in education. So not only in our junior colleagues, but also in educating the museum staffs and students. So we put quite some effort there and we are in some university programs as guest lectures. 

[00:31:16] Ben: Something I've observed over the years just knowing you and your work at LIMA and beyond is that you have always had close relationships with artists. That's always been very central to your practice it seems. Who are some of the artists that you've had, some long and rich relationships with over the years?

[00:31:37] Gaby: There are many. We are an artist driven organization. In that sense, we are supporting artists and the distribution services is a service that artists ask us to do for them. So there are many artists that are with us for a long time, like Nan Hoover or Marina Abramovich or lots of performance artists, but these are also artists like Jan Robert Leegte or Constant Dullaart or yeah, many video artists. So it depends a bit also of my colleagues from distribution have also a lot of contacts with artists and some of them became friends it's a very friendly work relation. And some of them, you know, very well for already a very long time. This relation goes with artists. So these are also sustainable relations, but also to institutions. For instance, when I entered the field of media art or computer based art or net art preservation, one of the first institutions I worked with was C3 Budapest and this is long time ago, maybe 20 years, ago. And today we were still talking about it and we are still in contact. And if we have particular questions, for instance, about VR where we know they have a pool of people that are really keen on that, and very knowledgeable, we asked him to join our round tables. So I think we are mixing all these networks and all these disciplines, and this is what we, yeah, we do quite well. 

[00:33:24] Ben: Well, it seems like it's working out for you.

[00:33:26] Gaby: Yes, it does 

[00:33:29] Ben: I'm curious if you have any advice for folks who are maybe thinking about getting into this field of stewarding time-based media art.

[00:33:38] Gaby: Yeah, I think it's very clever to see if you can do a fellowship or an internship to practice and to get familiar with the museum practice as well or the collection practice, because, of course there's a lot that you can learn and study, but a lot of it of this field is still happening in practice. And you have to practice also to, I don't know the word in English, but to have a certain flow, like if you can program, if you can make code you have to practice this because otherwise you get rusty or your skills get rusty. So this is also why I would encourage everyone to go for internships or fellowships if possible. There is, some education nowadays, there are museums that offer fellowships there are universities that offer courses and whole programs. Also, ask. Find some colleagues or for instance, look at INCCA where people from the fields are happy to coach or are happy to once in a while, talk to you. If you have questions about the field or how to develop, or how can you tackle that or get involved. Try and meet and, mingle and talk about it. Yeah, that's what is most important I think. 

[00:35:08] Ben: So, Gaby, what is coming next for you?

[00:35:13] Gaby: We have currently two large research projects. One is related to the connection of our catalogs with Wikipedia to give, uh, media artists and media artworks, more visibility. We connect with Wikipedia and some institutions, making biographies that will be published on Wikimedia, but also in our catalog. And that hopefully gets a lot of attention and generates a lot of traffic. So the visibility and the awareness of media art will be on another level. And we're doing writing sessions with artists, with universities and other institutions to get all these biographies uh, updated. That's one project we are doing, and Sanneke Huisman our curator is in charge of the project that I'm doing at the moment that started in August it's a nationwide program designed to build knowledge more surrounding the collection and preservation of digital art in the Netherlands. And it revolves around a development of a technical infrastructure, but we are also executing case studies and these case studies are proposed by Dutch cultural heritage institutions that involved in the project. These are net art based works of Jan Robert Leegte, of Rafaël Rozendaal, but these are also more complex installation or computer-generated artworks. And through the study of these case studies, we hope they gain and we gain technical understanding and better acquisition protocols and so on. We are also creating possibilities for junior or staff members to be employed in this project and interns, so they learn from the other colleagues. So all these kind of things we're doing right now, so more to follow there, 

[00:37:20] Ben: That's incredible to hear, just that little slice of what you're up to next, that's so much. Well, Gaby Wijers, thank you so much for your time, and for coming on the show, you are just such an inspiration, the amount that you have contributed to the field over the years is just astonishing, so it's truly an honor to have you on the show.

[00:37:42] Gaby: Thank you, Ben. It's appreciated. 

[00:37:45] Ben: And so are you dear listener, thank you for joining me for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it. And if you did and you want to help support our work and mission of equitably, compensating artists, like I mentioned, at the top, you can join us over at patreon.com/artobsolescence. Or if you are interested in making a one-time tax deductible gift through our fiscal sponsor, the New York Foundation for the Arts. You can do so artandobsolescence.com/donate and there, you can also find the show notes and full transcript as well as highlights on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence have a great week my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.