Episode 054 Caroline Gil Rodríguez

Written By Cass Fino-Radin
 

Show Notes

This week we’re visiting with media conservator and conservator Caroline Gil Rodríguez, who last year became director of preservation and media collections at the Electronic Arts Intermix. EAI played an incredibly pivotal role in cementing video art’s place in history, and there Caroline is doing exciting work not only to safeguard their important collection, but also to help shape and rethink what role a place like EAI plays within the broader time-based media conservation ecosystem today, many decades after the organizations founding. In our chat we hear about Caroline’s vibrant professional journey, and the incredible array of positions she has held across many different contexts within the moving image preservation world – from handling nitrate film, preserving Catalonia’s legacy of silent film – to assessing software based works of art at the Museum of Modern Art and the MET. Our chat with Caroline further expands the global map we’ve been building on the show of time-based media conservation practice, as we hear all about her origins and early professional years in Puerto Rico. Tune in to hear Caroline’s story!

At the time we’re releasing this episode Puerto Rico is reeling from the devastation of hurricane Fiona. Below is a list of local aid and relief organizations courtesy our guest – please consider supporting them if you are able:

Other links from the conversation with Caroline
>  M&M proyectos curator Michy Marxuach https://www.cifo.org/index.php/visit/leadership/item/596?tmpl=biographies&TB_iframe=true&height=500&width=900

>  We didn’t ask permission, we just did it… https://camstl.org/exhibitions/we-didnt-ask-permission-we-just-did-it/

> Recording of noise band Cornucopia, at Iámbica Festival https://archive.org/details/Live_SanJuan_01 

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Transcript   

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology. This week on the show, we are dipping back into the world of preservation. 

[00:00:16] Caroline: Hello, my name is Caroline Gil Rodriguez and I am a media conservator and an archivist

[00:00:23] Ben: Last year Caroline became the Director of Preservation and media collections at the Electronic Arts Intermix, or EAI a nonprofit that of course played an incredibly pivotal role in cementing video arts place in history. At EAI, Caroline is doing exciting work, not only to safeguard their important collection, but also to help shape and rethink what role a place like EAI plays. Within the broader time-based media conservation ecosystem today, so many decades after the organization's founding. was excited to sit down and chat with Caroline, not just to hear about what she is up to at EAI, but also to get the story of her professional journey. She has held an incredible array of positions and so many different contexts within the moving image preservation world from handling nitrate film, preserving Catalonia's legacy of silent film to assessing software based works of art at the MET and at MoMA. I think Caroline's perspective is particularly unique among the conservators we've heard from on the show so far as well as a conservator, born and raised in Puerto Rico. We covered so much ground in our chat and I am so excited to share it with you all this Now, normally this is the point in the introduction where I remind you all that this show is a very DIY effort and that it wouldn't happen without the support from our generous patrons and supporters. But this week I wanted to do something different. If you have been paying any attention to the news, of course you are well aware of how hard Puerto Rico, including our guests, hometown of San Juan was hit by hurricane Fiona. So, instead of asking you all to support the show this week, our guest Caroline has provided a list of aid groups and relief funds doing incredibly important work on the ground. And you'll find the full list of these in the show notes this week. I hope that if you are able to, you will consider checking that out and supporting the recovery efforts in Puerto Rico. And now without further delay, let's dive into this week's chat with Carolyn heel Rodriguez. 

[00:02:30] Caroline: I think that my interests and appreciation of the arts, uh, was probably planted very early on. my paternal great-grandfather is originally from Venezuela and he immigrated to Puerto Rico and had a photography studio in the early 19th century in old San Juan. Subsequently my father had a lot of camera ephemera. So camera and film, projectors and glass negatives. That made a mark on my father and my grandfather And, then on me. My father and grandfather were also, you know, just photography aficionados, didn't work in that my grandfather was an accountant and my father works in real estate but they had, I guess, artistic inclinations. My mother also is very creative she's a very skilled seamstress, she's a teacher and she put my sister and in sewing lessons early on, and I'm always super grateful to her because that's one of the real world practical skills that I have that I cherish and try to cultivate the most. I mean, I don't know how to do a lot of things, but I do know how to sew and hem a pants. So I'm very grateful for that. And I always tell this story. That, you know, when I was a teenager, I wanted to become a salsa trumpet player. I really held onto that dream I was so determined to become a trumpet player that I saved up money that my parents would give me for lunch by eating a 75 cent nature valley bar and keeping the remaining money like pocketing that money. And with time, I, managed to save up $250 to buy a trumpet with a case and a silencer and a book. I never really took lessons. So I sort of forced myself to learn this instrument, which if, you know, brass instruments, it's not an easy thing and I would never call myself a trumpet player, but at least I know the basics and I could get a sound. But music has always been around and I always say that it's like my first love and if I could redo my life again, I would probably apply myself towards a career in music or sound, the cards were dealt differently I guess. The other thing was that I was a rebellious teenager and I would categorize my younger years as being a misfit and somewhat maladjusted. I went to an Catholic all girls school that was run by nuns in their habits and I think I felt very constricted by society, norms and being from Puerto Rico, can feel sometimes oppressive and limiting. But regardless, my best friend, Patricia her parents were both artists and through her, we would go to gallery nights. And I was always looking for whatever form of like radical paradigm shifting art I could experience at the places where that was happening, which there were not a lot of places where that was happening. It was quite limited in Puerto Rico, but there was a scene. For example I remember going to these experimental electronic music and media art events called Iámbica in my junior and sophomore year of high school without my parents' consent. these were events that were put together by a group of musicians at abandoned spaces. I remember this one abandoned, like Spanish revival mansion called Cassandra Lucia and going there and being just really impacted and struck by the act of occupying a neglected, home, and then creating a space for music experimentation. Then another thing that was kind of happening at that time, which I think may have had an effect on me was that there's this curator called Michy Marxuach, who was organizing these events under the name of M&M proyectos was, which was sort of like an alternative project dedicated to supporting the production of artists work that would, at least at that time would not be collected by a museum or a national institution. So there was that happening in old San Juan, events where artists would take over a building and have media art installations and performances and music events. And I would also go to that and there was also in San Juan la Trienal Poli/Gráfica. It's like a graphic triennial hosted by the city of San Juan. And I think quite visionary because they would include video they were seen or conceiving of video as a continuum of like lithography and photography and all of these kind of like graphic processes in art, which I thought was quite interesting. But anyways, throughout those events, the triennial and M&M proyectos, which, you know, this was happening in the early two thousands I don't want to age myself, but it was a different time, definitely that what you would see now where there's like an established scene of art and there are more institutions and established alternative spaces, but then there was a lot of experimentation and an energy of creation and, you know, just doing it without asking for permission or, you know. There's this word, I think about often about that time. That's in Spanish, autogestión which in English means self-managed but I think it has like a deeper meaning in Spanish. It's like self-organized, it's like, do it yourself, but, maybe more political or more, um, in sovereignty, especially in a place like Puerto Rico that is, a colony of the United States. Right. And, you know, I think whatever way we can find to exercise autonomy, we would and will take. So like I mentioned, I was kind of a misfit, so I graduated high school and I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I had this idea that I wanted to study filmmaking, but my parents would not let me, so I think the compromise was that I would study visual art and I think maybe they were thinking that I would reconsider but I wanted to make films. I wanted to make videos. I wanted to be a video artist and there wasn't at that time, like a full fledged media arts program in Puerto Rico in any of the, either public or private universities. So I figured I'll just do a bachelor's in visual art and, take photography classes and try to hone those skills. And you know, as soon as I graduated from the four year bachelors, like typical, normal track I did my best to apply and go to a film school because I wanted to become a cinematographer, a director of photography. That's what I was thinking that I wanted to do. So I ended up going to this school in Barcelona. It's interesting because throughout my bachelors, I worked as a waitress and at a hotel and, gathered enough money to actually pay for this program in Barcelona Escola Superior de Cinema i Audiovisuals. It's, it's a pretty notable film school in Barcelona, in Catalonia. And so I paid for it which is so bizarre to say now considering like student loan debt and all of that, but yeah, I mean, I paid for it. I And I got to go to Barcelona, which was rad. And the time in Barcelona was also very influential because not to say that there isn't a cultural scene in Puerto Rico, but the scale at a city like Barcelona is so completely different. And I was just blown away by these amazing public art institutions. Most of them funded by the city government So, you know, there's like Filmoteca de Catalunya and the museum of contemporary art and MACBA and the Gacha forum and the CCCB the Contemporary Culture Center. I mean, there's so many I was also blown away by the fact that Spanish people, at least from my interpretation were like true cinephiles. Like they would go to the cinema and discuss cinema. And I just loved being in that, the truly pivotal told moment of being in Barcelona and studying to become a director of photography. It became clear to me that I didn't wanna direct films. So I was thinking maybe I would want to work as a focus puller or a camera assistant, and then work my way up to the ranks and become like a fullfledge director of photography. But something made me come into contact with the Catalan Filmotec. So I sent them an email, unsolicited blind email asking if they would host me as an intern for a couple months. I was also looking for something to do with my free time, because I couldn't work because I was on a student visa. And to my surprise, they said, yes, and they welcomed me. And then that's where I kind of became aware of film conservation because they had a, center for conservation and restoration that was really advanced. I don't know if you know Spanish or Catalan film history, but, they had studios and like filmmakers from the very early silent period making amazing films. At that time I was really into silent cinema and one of the major directors Segundo de Chomón is from Barcelona and so being at the filmotec, working on Segundo de Chomón films, preparing prints for exhibition and being taught how to splice film, how to clean splices, how to prepare prints for exhibition and for scanning really opened up my eyes to the world of conservation. And I was like, a total defining moment of, oh yeah, I wanna do this. I wanna figure out how to work with the materiality of film, and media focusing on the technical aspects of it , and help, you know, restore these older films. Working at the filmotec, I was working mostly with three women who I thought were like fabulous and so skilled and technically adept and just like really fascinating women. And, and I felt really supported by them. They would give me books about film preservation in Catalan and Italian. I remember like, trying to read them and with my really rudimentary Italian and Catalan, just reading a sentence and trying to, translate that in my head. And then, uh, Mariana, who's the head of the conservation center she wrote recommendation letters for me, and I just felt really supported, whereas, um, maybe in my attempt to become a director of photography, it was less so because it was a different time. I think that definitely has changed now, but I think being a woman did not help at that time. And it was such a gendered profession that it was really difficult to break, you know, to be taken seriously. As a female, identifying director of photography is really tough. And so when I came back to Puerto Rico, I tried to assist a couple of DPs back home and, and some, to their credit, they gave me a, a shot, but it just didn't stick. And so I thought, you know, this would be a way for me to work with the materials of moving image culture and, you know, satisfy, I guess that that itch that I had, that I wanted to work with art. I started getting jobs in film production so I was working as a film production coordinator mostly. And that, was something that I really enjoyed doing contributing to the realization of you know, these productions that would fly to Puerto Rico and they would film like the second unit of a film, like Fast Four Fast Five, you know, I was part of that production team. I did a lot of odd jobs like that. I worked as a casting assistant for a while which was fun. Eventually I got this job through a friend at this library and archive, in the visual arts school in San Juan, Escuela de Artes Plásticas, and that's where a lot of the. The major artists or like successful artists most of them study there you know, it's a small school and I just loved being there. And I worked as a library assistant. I also found that they had this collection of VHS tapes of original student work and some documentation of events and performances that were happening at the school. And I convinced the library director to allow me to digitize all of that stuff. And they went along with it. I mean, I really didn't have the training to do that, but I just did it. I was reading the AMIA listserve quite a lot at that time. I did that for maybe six years and then I just thought maybe I should get serious about preservation. And the only way I could figure out how to do it was to go to grad school again and study for that. And So I met Dan Streible around that time, who is the Associate Director of the Moving Image Archiving and Preservation Program? I had met him at a Flaherty Film Seminar that he curated and that I had been invited through my work with this collective that I was part of called the Puerto Rican film society. And just talking to him and at the Flaherty seminar that I also met a whole host of characters, including Bill Seery from the Standby Program and an incredible array of colleagues, friends, artists, that I'm still in touch with. It was a very special moment for me, for sure. I decided to apply to the MIAP program and the essay that I used to get into Mia was this essay that I had written about the history of video art in Puerto Rico. A lot of the work from media artists in Puerto Rico ended up in private collections or US museums, but wasn't really being collected in the national archives or the national museums or the museum of contemporary art in Puerto Rico. My essay was kind of a plea for that work to be seriously collected. I was actually very surprised when I got in. I didn't think I would. I was so surprised. I was like, okay, I'm moving to New York. 

[00:18:24] Ben: So for grad school in general, and I think, MIAP and art conservation programs as well. Internships while you're in program are, very important. And that's where you can get some real hands on experience outside of the classroom. So, I'm curious, you know, during your MIAP years, were there interesting internships you had along the way?

[00:18:47] Caroline: Yeah. I had a variety of internships like different kinds of institutions. So the first one that I did was the New York Public Library at the film and video reserve. That collection is, quite interesting because anybody can go and ask for a film print and screen it whenever they want. And that collection is also interesting because David Callahan, who used to work there and who was the creative director of the collection had an interest in experimental film and nonfiction film and films made by young people. So it's a very unique collection. after that I had a summer internship at the Smithian Center for Folk Life and Cultural Heritage, there I mostly worked with Crystal Sanchez and Stephanie Smith, who you may know. I worked with born digital video and born digital documentation of these festivals that they host yearly around certain cultures which is really interesting. And so there, it was really cool because I was working within a production environment. I was working in between the videographers and the archive taking that raw footage and transforming it into something that could be ingested into the repository. And then the last internship that I had was at the Kramlich Collection. That was something that was set up by Mona Jimenez, who I have to mention is my inspiration, my role model, my mentor. To be honest, I was little suspicious about the art world based on my initial experience, trying to make it as a video artist or as an artist. I knew I wanted to work with artists, but I didn't know if I wanted to work in the art world. But she convinced me and I was like, okay. I mean, whatever you say, I will absolutely do so I did, and I worked there. It was really interesting and it opened the door into that world of I guess what you would call a more formalized, like media art, conservation world. In those two years, I worked with these two artists, Jack Waters and Peter Kramer who used to direct ABC No Rio and are performance and media artists themselves. I also did an independent study. Supervised by Peter Oleksik working with the artist Anita Thatcher and that was really interesting because that was a hybrid collection of film and video. And I would just go to her loft and work with her doing inventory and doing like a collection assessment of the condition of these films, what was the better source for preservation and doing sort of roadmap for preserving her collection. And she was thinking about where she would want that collection to reside eventually went to the academy art museum. With those experiences, I was like, okay I think I like working with artists, working directly with artists and with art. But I didn't know if there was a job for that, honestly it's like one thing leading to another. I mean, I did that work with Anita and then I got called back to continue working with her. So I did that for years. I mean, I, I actually stopped doing that some months ago. And I started, you know, also getting, referrals to work with other artists. So I worked with this filmmaker called Diego Echeverria and UnionDocs on a collection assessment of his film materials, which ended up going to the center for Puerto Rican studies. And I did some work with the Meredith monk foundation. And yeah, I mean, one thing led to another and I was, starting to think like, okay, maybe I can find my place here, like doing this sort of work on maybe a project basis or on a freelance basis and support myself doing whatever else my nine to five. I also think that a beautiful relationship arises between somebody that is newly transplanted to the city and an artist, maybe of an older generation. I found a lot of deep friendships with those artists and I think it's yeah, it's a very beautiful thing. Like an affinity, people find each other and there's a kinship there. That was really special to me and I wanted to hang onto

[00:23:32] Ben: That's really nice. Well, so eventually you graduated from MIAP and you landed as an Andrew w Mellon fellow the MET and MoMA. So, what was that like and what kind of projects did you work on?

[00:23:55] Caroline: Yeah, my time as a fellow at MoMA and the MET was really plentiful and abundant, it was a special moment because my fellowship was part of this media conservation initiative which was this project that encomp assed these fellowships, but also workshops on getting started with media conservation. Institutions would apply and take part of this week long intensive workshop that myself and colleagues at the media conservation department designed and planned and executed. So yeah, it was like really busy prolific time and then, working in that department with such lovely people, Peter Oleksik, Amy Brost, Kate Lewis, and then the conservation department at large just an incredible array of people I was exposed to so many things I wanted to do everything and the collection because of its enormous size lended itself to that. So I could work on the installation of a Bruce Nauman artwork and work on some video games work on film, work on video, like single channel video. And the collection is so incredible, obviously like major names, Adrian Piper, Joan Jonas, Sondra Perry, Pope L you know, just incredible to be engaged and immersed in that museum engine, like the energy was really electric and also it was interesting because being a fellow gave you the flexibility to pursue other interests too. While I was there, I focused on this artwork called Rainforest Five, Variation One, which is a work of art conceived by David Tudor and realized by composers Inside Electronics.  It's a sound installation made from everyday objects, like, like vintage computer hard disks and plastic tubing. And these objects are suspended in the gallery fitted with sonic transducers, suspended in the space to create kind of like a ressonant quality. And underneath the hood of this artwork was this Max MSP patch or software programmed by the artists that would play these files that they would record using various techniques. And so I worked with composers Inside Electronics to document their installation of the work, but also document this patch that they had created. And I created an assembly manual for these objects and, you know, fitting these transducers into these objects, how they did that, what the process was, what the process was for, tuning the objects specifically to the space and, we had a couple of interviews one specifically around the software based component of the artwork and the other around the objects. And that led to a really great collaboration with the objects conservators at MoMA. And it was just again, really, really special to be in that collaborative environment, which is really where I love to work and where I think personally I thrive. At the met, I sort of continued that work on software based artwork. So they had seven software based artworks in that collection and were actively acquiring contemporary work. So that genre and I worked on creating a foundation for the long term management and storage of time based media. So at that time they were figuring out their repository and how to update their TMS records to accurately reflect and describe these types of artworks. So a lot of cataloging work and creating like procedures and workflows specifically tailored for software based artworks. And at the met, I worked principally on two artworks one by Philippe Parreno called With a Rhythmic Instinction To Be Able to Travel Beyond Exisiting Forces of Life and Motion and Rest Number Two by Jim Campbell. And that experience was also really great because I was working on this Jim Campbell artwork and my friend Shu-Wen Lin had done a lot of research on an artwork of his. So it was also finding a way to collaborate with others I had a deep desire to do that to work with others. 

[00:28:50] Ben: Well, fast forward to today and you have just continued your trajectory of totally crushing it and you're now Director of Media Collections and Preservation at the Electronic Arts Intermix. So I guess, first of all, congratulations. That's awesome, but I'm super curious, what does your role at EAI entail? 

[00:29:22] Caroline: EAI is a nonprofit founded in 1971 by the gallerist Howard Wise. He famously organized the exhibition TV as a Creative Medium in 1969. That exhibition included works by Nam June Paik, Charlotte Morman, Paul Ryan Eric Siegel, et cetera. But EAI, as it exists now is uh, a resource that fosters the creation, exhibition, distribution, and preservation of media art. And so there I am responsible for the technical stewardship of over 4,000 media artworks.

 And my role, there is a continuation of the technical director role which that role oversaw the preservation program and the technical facilities. Um, so my predecessors would work directly with artists to edit remaster and preserve works in the EAI collection. And you know, there's like notable people in that lineage of technical director as well, like Trevor Shimizu and Robert Buck and Jon Dieringer. So yes, this kind of reconceptualization of director of media collections and preservation is outright taking the responsibility of physical and digital storage, reformatting preservation, making exhibition copies, working with museum acquisitions, but then also working with artists who bring old titles or new titles and yeah, just managing the intellectual control and preservation of the collection. So that's my purview. It's nice to work shoulder to shoulder with an artist and having them come in and bring their hard drives and like going through the drive and like asking the questions, what is this? Um, you know, how would you describe this? How do you, do you want this to be distributed? What do you want to do with this? How does this look? A lot of the works in the EIA EAI are digitizations of analog video works. So it's a lot of also looking back at their work, and seeing what needs to be re digitized or or what works would need preservation. So it is lovely to be working with artists in that way. It's also a little bit challenging because it's a nonprofit and, we're a very small staff and I'm the sole person in charge of preservation. So it has been a little bit of a challenge for me to adjust my ambitions. Right. Because I wanna do it all and do it now. And, um, You know, the clock of a nonprofit is very different than the clock of a museum or an archive they're operate on three different speeds. Also the relationship that is established with the artist is different coming from EAI, which is more horizontal, whereas in a museum, it might be a little bit more skewed or different. It's been really nice. Also I've been working with an intern from the IFA conservation school to document the first software based artwork that EAI is distributing it's an app based work. So that has been really interesting too, working with the collector and working with the artists and the technical collaborator of the artist, having artists interviews, working on, what would the documentation of a software based artwork look like for not a museum, a nonprofit. We are also working with Maurice Schechter to redesign and reconceptualize our digitization facility. We're really looking to make it more into a media conservation lab type facility where we can digitize analog videotape, but also responsibly care for born digital works and be able to condition, check them based on the standards. And yeah, solidifying the workflows and procedures for bringing those works in. I mean, it's a lot of like internal work, procedures and workflows and establishing of protocols and. 

[00:33:36] Ben: Super sexy stuff.

[00:33:38] Caroline: I know. Yeah.

[00:33:42] Ben: Love a good flow chart.

[00:33:43] Caroline: Uh huh yeah, exactly, exactly. It's the one step two. Yeah.

[00:33:48] Ben: You know, as somebody that has worked so extensively, you know, within so many different contexts, you know, you have worked in libraries, you've worked in archives, you've worked in the film industry. You've worked in, contemporary art museums, modern art museums, and in time-based media conservation, I'm curious, if there are any learnings that you have brought, across fields or disciplines from one to the other, tools and techniques, or just like maybe ways of thinking that you borrow from one discipline to apply to another.

[00:34:26] Caroline: Yeah, I think that's a great question. I, I have found in my conservation journey that time-based media conservation is a lot about information management and so I find that my training and experiences in archives and information sciences help a lot in that regard because ultimately you are managing reframing and interpreting information about a media artwork. And I mean, you know, having intellectual control of a media artwork is a lot like having intellectual control of archival collections. Also, you know, working with a lot of historical media artworks, you end up accruing, what could be referred to as an archive of a single work. So documentation about a work installation, photographs, reviews, different cuts of one single channel video, for example, on different formats on DVD, on betacam or digibeta on born digital, raw footage about a media artwork. And I think definitely my archival training has helped in thinking about how to manage again, that information about a single artwork. What I enjoy about the conservation field is this current thinking and rethinking about ethics of care. that tendency to consciously think about your positionality and how to care for something that may not be conservable that I find really thrilling and maybe I don't see so much , on the archives field.

[00:36:03] Ben: So we have, taken this like beautiful tour of your journey and your professional evolution. I'm curious, you know, coming up to the present day, is there anything coming next for you?

[00:36:17] Caroline: Yeah, so I've been working on writing an article about artist interviews in three different contexts, at a museum at my current workplace at EAI and then teaching. I do adjunct work at NYU when I teach this class or co-teach this class called Handling Complex Media and last semester we had the students work with an artist and have an artist interview and seeing that played out was really beautiful, to think about how to interview an artist a young artist, an artist that is just starting to think about preservation without overly determining, you know, those qualities that sometimes we try to fix perhaps too fast or too quickly. So you know, that, kind of balancing or tricky lines that we dance around and how to teach that right to people people entering the field. So I've been writing that article. I love writing. I think that's, my happy place. So I'm trying to do more of that, and I'm also trying to dream up and conspire with others about taking this work internationally, specifically to the global south. So thinking maybe of a Confederation of Latin American or Caribbean media conservators. So I've been developing that idea with, with others. Nothing that I can talk about quite yet. Nothing that is fully set yet. But yeah, if somebody out there is interested in also working on that I would love to hear from them. Developing a community of practice in the global south regarding media conservation, I think is something that I wanna start realizing and doing.

[00:38:05] Ben: That's super, super cool and very much needed. So I guess my last question for you is if you have any advice for folks who are listening in and might be interested after hearing your awesome story in getting into this field?

[00:38:22] Caroline: I would say get your hands dirty, pick up some cables and start connecting things. Try to work with artists, try to find that path, try to assist artists in installing work, get in contact with people that have a path that is similar to what you want to embark on. People are very generous and friendly, which is quite nice. So reach out definitely. And the one important thing I think in relation to getting into this field is to never cease, to be curious. So always think about how was this thing made? Find a way to cultivate that curiosity in your personal life to is important.

[00:39:05] Ben: Well, Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was just a real treat to get, to hear all of the parts of your story that I didn't know, and to, visit with you.

[00:39:15] Caroline: Thank you for the invitation and for your time, it was a treat to think about, and reflect on these things with you. Thanks.

[00:39:21] Ben: And thank you dear listener for joining me for this week's show. As always, if you want to help support our work and mission of equitably compensating artists that come on the show. You can join us over at patreon.com/artobsolescence, or if a one-time tax deductible gift is more your speed, you can do so through our fiscal sponsor, the New York Foundation for the Arts at artandobsolescence.com/donate. And on the show site, you can also find the full episode archive, including full transcripts and show notes. And last but not least you can always find us on Twitter and Instagram @ artobsolescence. Until next time have a great week my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin, and this has been Art and Obsolescence. 

 
Cass Fino-Radin
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