Episode 003: Legacy Russell

Ben Fino-Radin 0:00

From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, I chat with artists, collectors, curators, conservators and more; people who are shaping the past, present, and future of art and technology. On today's show, we have such a special guest…

Legacy Russell 0:25

My name is Legacy Russell. I'm the Associate Curator of Exhibitions at the Studio Museum in Harlem here in New York City, and the forthcoming Executive Director and Chief Curator at the Kitchen also in New York.

Ben Fino-Radin 0:38

Legacy is also the author of the recently published Glitch Feminism: A Manifesto, I simply had to have Legacy on the show after reading this book this past summer, the book came out just before the pandemic started, but the timing is uncanny not only because so much of the art world was forced to go online during the pandemic, and the book in some ways can serve as a field guide for newcomers, but also at the level of the individuals so many people found themselves spending so much of their day in cyberspace, a place that often has the potential for more expansiveness for gender expression and performance, something that the book articulates more beautifully than I possibly could. In addition to presenting some of the most relevant art of our time, and serving quite literally as a manifesto for a new era of gender expansiveness, and a less harmful cyberspace. The book is also deeply personal legacy brings us along to witness their early experiences and experiments in cyberspace, in the age of the early web. And we began our conversation there, I asked what Legacy: what were the experiences growing up that really began her life in the arts?

Legacy Russell 1:55

I mean, I always love to say that my life and you know, kind of commitment to art and curiosity about it came from outside of institutional spaces, I had the great joy and privilege of growing up in the East Village, in a period of time where the East Village certainly was not what it is now, it was not, you know, to some degree, kind of a bit of a strip mall like it, you know, it like it's a place that has become like, hyper commercialized with like, all of these, you know, kind of intense chains now having taken over what used to be much more intimate family, businesses and community organizations. So I was, you know, a kid in a space where this area of New York was changing in so many ways. And, you know, the ongoing investment into the possibilities of of, you know, the future what the East Village should be, was an ongoing question. It was persistently asked across the work that my parents did his community organizers, the work that they, you know, also kind of engaged me in and thinking about what it means to be part of a creative community. Because, you know, my father was a photographer, who grew up in Harlem, my mom was a gerontologist, and she was from Hawaii. So they met in these village and the ways in which I think that they had kind of visioned building a family in this place was, you know, to think about it being something that was as much a community project as it was, you know, a family in a nuclear way project, right. So this kind of queering of the kind of family presence was certainly part of the ways in which, you know, I was brought into creative work and meeting amazing folks and makers from a very early age, and also to my mom, I think, you know, had me kind of deeply invested in, you know, the theater for the New City and PS122. And, you know, going to Joe's pub, you know, getting an opportunity to, you know, queue up super early in the morning to get my tickets to go to Shakespeare in the Park, right? Like, there are these moments of being a kid and you kind of, you know, being able to have these amazing eye opening experiences, you know, I can remember, for example, seeing Patti Smith perform at St. Mark's church on the Bowery, like these are things that were so just extraordinary. Right, and, and thinking about the ways where oftentimes, there is an assumption, right, that growing up as a New Yorker, that we're all brought into museums from an early age, but you know, I feel uniquely blessed to be able to say that, like, you know, I had a different perspective, from early on that museums were not the only place that I understood that art could be in fact, actually, you know, I understood that often so much happened outside of the walls of museums. For me, when I think about like my beginnings, a lot of my, you know, great joys and inspirations also come from going out literally like being a club kid and going out and, you know, being in a downtown scene and having a better understanding of the ways in which public space really was performance space, it was art space, it was making space, right? It was activist space, right? that these are networks that were really critical to the advancement of art and culture and amazing meeting places right where you really could kind of convene with your idols, you know, for me, I think about, you know, in terms of performance, that those nascent experiences of being kind of brought into the world really seeing how art could embed itself, you know, in the spaces around us in our every day that that actually was the beginning of some of what has now become this epic love affair, right? Of, you know, art and the institution and thinking too through the responsibility of what a curator has to these histories, which is how do you kind of think about the very real, you know, presences that you know, of kind of Black and queer histories and feminist histories that have been radical and advancing art and culture across New York and, you know, across the US and across the world, right. But also appreciate to that so much has been, you know, erased and whitewashed over time. And that, you know, the act of responsibility of the curator, hopefully, is to think through the ways that, you know, in doing this work of research and collaboration with artists and with these histories, that these stories can be preserved. Right, and that they can be recontextualized and celebrated.

Ben Fino-Radin 6:07

Yeah, so, I mean, curator is a really specific career path. So what was it ultimately, that led you to the role of curation?

Legacy Russell 6:17

Oh, my gosh, well, I always say actually, like, if I could do it all again, like I actually do think the pathway of conservator and registrar also would be something that I probably as a kid would have loved to be exposed to, at an earlier age, I think I didn't even fully have full scope and understanding of the possibilities of what that institutional work could even look like, and also how deeply collective it is right? That actually that it is not contrary to I think, what is sometimes a systemic myth, the institutional space, it's not a curator, who is the brain of the institution, right? That that is a model of institution that actually is problematic. It's hierarchical. It engages, of course, the kind of complex dynamics that are certainly you know, racialized and class oriented, and deeply gendered, often too across institutional work. So you know, I think that the education the teaching of right what it means to even be a curator came through multiple channels. And one of them was certainly of projects and things that I know kind of was watching and looking at admiring, and the people in the world who were doing exciting work, Thelma Golden, of course, being one of those people like such an icon, and through and beyond her work at the Studio Museum in Harlem was so pivotal, certainly, you know, for a young Black person, like being able to see the possibility of that work of leadership in the world, you know, was so expansive, but then also as well, really thinking about the fact that, you know, when I was in school, I got a fellowship, to work at the Met, for a summer. And it was in that period of time that I think that like, that was the really the first step because I was curious about all these different parts of what it meant to work within the arts. But it was the experience of being at the Met that really allowed me to best understand perhaps the different constituents that institutions have to answer to, and I had spent a summer going between the archives of 19th century modern and contemporary. And then of course, working as well, within education, audience development. And you know, these are two unusual things to kind of come into contact with each other right within the arc of a fellowship. But I felt very grateful that I was placed within these different departments because it gave me the greatest perspective and best understanding, actually, some of the great challenges that come from trying to ask this question like, who are our publics? What does that work look like? And so it was through that experience, I was really galvanized, I think, to begin that journeying institutionally through first steps into education, working closely to think about ways of bringing projects and programs to younger publics, right, because, of course, that that entry point felt really valuable and meaningful to me, but then as well to be very proud and talking about my pathway from working in education inside of institutional spaces to growing as a curator, and that also, I think, you know, at the time felt quite controversial. But I think more and more now, you know, that kind of crossover between departments of education and curatorial work is much more permeable than I think it has ever been. And that is something that has been really exciting to see the sort of modernity that is possible within doing that collective work and to to understand that, you know, being able to engage publics through an educational perspective, and bring that work and research that important history, into curatorial work. And then again, of course, in close collaboration with my dear colleagues in educational work as well becomes really instrumental, I think, to the way in which I view curatorial practice that it is a curators responsibility to be active and present in thinking about access and opening up the story of the institution to as many people as possible so that people truly feel a sense of ownership and wonderment and excitement and entitlement if I can dare say over you know what is happening within a museums walls. So those are lessons that happened, you know, it feels both fast and slow. But, you know, I had, after working at the Met went on to work at the Whitney and the Brooklyn Museum. So I, you know, a deep love and admiration for, you know, the ways in which people inside of institutional spaces have continued to do such important work and expanding the definition of what the future of a museum should look like. And, you know, that certainly, I think, was a pretty phenomenal journey. Given that, you know, when I was growing up and going out, you know, in downtown New York, I didn't fully understand what a curator would do, you know, I didn't understand what that responsibility was. But you know, I have had the great joy of having some incredible experiences that have kind of taught me the different models of how that can be shaped. And I think it's always something that I encourage for folks who are not in this world as of yet, or who are curious about it, but perhaps are questioning their sense of belonging, but actually, it's wonderful to have people who have not grown up, you know, with major collections in their homes, right, like to have people who maybe do not always have access to every museum to have actually like, you know, folks who are curious and excited, right, but do not maybe, you know, have from their very beginnings, right? direct immersion into art, but that they have to seek it out, right, and then seeking it out, also finding a way to feel entitled to that belonging that, for me is really important. And I always feel like, it's important to remind folks that that can be possible.

Ben Fino-Radin 11:26

Totally, yes. So after that journey of seeing how many different institutions looked and felt, it seems like for the past three years or so the Studio Museum has really been a special place for you. So I'm curious, what was it ultimately, that led you there?

Legacy Russell 11:45

So you know, just a little bit about the Studio Museum in Harlem for those who are new to our history, it is an institution that was founded in 1968, you know, true to its name, and it has both studio in its name, museum in its name, right and Harlem in its name because it is a place where artists got together to create an idea really, of what the future of art should look like, right? And these are Black artists who at the time were working through some, you know, amazing moments in history, thinking about questions of equity and diversity and inclusion and participation, right, and representation and empowerment. And to think about ways to create one's own space, right was as much about the idea of the museum, right? challenging the notion of what institutional space should look like, given that of course, at that time, and of course, even frustratingly, right, even to this moment, here and now, right, there were ongoing discussions and challenges about the ways of Blackness should be represented right, within art and, of course, within institutional setting. So, you know, a group of amazing artists and philanthropists and activists and thinkers got together to create this incredible space, where an artists could both produce artwork and as well, curators working with artists, and, you know, artists working with curators could produce exhibitions, and of course, too work with, you know, folks along public programs in education to really comprehensively ask the questions as tied to the mission of, you know, what does it mean to have an institution be the nexus of Black art and culture, my dad was born and raised in Harlem. So you know, his way of working certainly was one that was a long and incredible relationship of documenting Harlem over time, as a photographer, he was somebody who spent many years creating this incredible archive and thinking deeply about his connections to Harlem as a community. And so you know, just as my mom kind of had me out in the world, like, you know, kind of pounding the pavement with her and going to many experimental shows, I think I learned so much from my dad as well, of course, in terms of thinking about what these other networks look like, within the arts and the Studio Museum was, of course, central to that constellation, thinking about the way in which so many institutions have learned from and been guided by the City Museum, its history, its mission, its work, it's incredible community of artists, right. And so, you know, for me, Studio Museum, when I would kind of journey up town to visit with my family, oftentimes was the stop alongside of I would pop into Sylvia's, which is, like, you know, was the kind of favorite for for the family meals. And it was great, I think, to be brought into that space early on, and to be able to see, of course, the institution change over time. So when I went to graduate school, I went to school in London at Goldsmiths, and then was there for six years working and living abroad. When I decided to come back to the United States, it was really to think through where my belonging would be right and like, what are the places and spaces that feel most important to me in this art world right now and of course Studio Museum really was that so the pathway felt like a really natural progression and I feel very lucky to be as part of the the Studio Museum community if only because of the fact that every day, it's an opportunity to kind of build towards something greater as an investment in the mission that we have.

Ben Fino-Radin 15:07

You know, so many of the artists that are in the book are working online, performing online. I'm curious how much of that has factored into your practice at the museum?

Legacy Russell 15:20

Well, you know, I think deeply about this question of art and the internet as being something that, you know, is as expansive as the institutional mission, right? That because Black culture and Black art is so deeply embedded in what it is to be in the world. That you know, of course, a natural extension to this, right is the ways in which Blackness drives and engages the digital, right, that actually, so much of what exists online, is produced by Black people. And so, you know, for me, my ongoing research and sort of thought around this right is as much something that, of course, has informed parts of our program, but also as well, the ways in which, you know, we've expanded the Studio Museum's digital presence and thought differently about how we can connect with our audiences, especially during this absolutely bonkers past year and a half, right, where there has been this pandemic that is ongoing, and certainly has asked all of us within institutions and outside of institutions, what the responsibility of the institution is, to engage the digital as an active part of sort of teaching and learning and engaging community. So you know, the artists that are in Glitch Feminism, which is my first book that came out in 2020, in the midst of all of this world change is a book that really looks at artists who are thinking about the digital as something that you know, as a conceptual framework or creative framework, a challenge, a provocation. And so you know, they are responding to it performatively, but also, you know, they're kind of coming of age, in an era of the internet and thinking through the questions of what it means to you know, have an entire generation of folks who are really growing up and growing older in cyberspace. So, you know, for me, I think, as I, you know, recognize that my role of being a curator at the Studio Museum engages so many exciting artists, as you as I've been there, you know, I've had the privilege of working on exhibitions, you know, with Garrett Bradley with Michael Armitage, with Dozie Kanu, with E. Jane and Naudline Pierre and Elliot Reed all of these amazing folks who, of course, are part of our program with Chloe Bass, like, gosh, there's so many. So, you know, thinking about the ways in which all of these artists have such vastly different perspectives, right about, you know, what it means to produce right and to create, but I would say, like a kind of constant through line is a unique awareness of the world as, as it is seen through the unmitigated by right, the lens of new media, that is certainly informs different modes of practice, and as well as a circulation of their own work of the ways in which they are producing. And so I always see, you know, working with each of the projects that I have taken on, over these years, and over the course of my career and opportunity to kind of expand that further. And certainly to kind of push the limits of of the ways in which that that can be applied.

Ben Fino-Radin 18:03

One of the things that I find so refreshing about your work as a writer and curator is that, you know, although so much of the work that you highlight is time based media, it feels like that's just somehow secondary or just incidental. You know, it feels like you're just bringing the most important artists of our time to light and it almost seems as a given that they're working with media or internet based formats. I'm curious, like, does that resonate with you? Or do you think that you're particularly drawn to artists working in time based media?

Legacy Russell 18:36

Hmm, I mean, I think I love time based media, just in general for a whole bunch of different reasons. One of them is because of the fact that it is an opportunity for people to respond in a certain way in active time and to challenge as well their relationship to what the generations of technology are, that they're using. So you know, there's like a texture to it, there's a cadence to it, depending on the ways in which of course, these different materials are put to use and that from like, a kind of materials perspective is always something that is really exciting to me, I'm really interested in the kind of decay of technology alongside of its application. And the fact that you know, many of these works in terms of time based media, you know, whether they are explicit or not, right, they engage questions of what decay and dissolution looks like as, as time moves on, right. So, part of the thing I think, that is really exciting, is to ask questions about the ways in which artists are presenting both challenges within that but also kind of leaning into the brokenness of the medium that actually the medium itself very different than you know other modes of expression always will be in motion in a way that actually cannot be controlled or predicted. And so you know, when we you go to school to study painting, for example, right, like there are certain things from a techniques perspective that feel fixed right now, right you Though I certainly would say that they are not right, there's always an opportunity to transform and, you know, expand what that work looks like. But the kind of science of painting is something that has been deeply engaged and, you know, deeply schooled. And the ways in which, of course, for time based media and for performance work, that that can be made more possible is a constant discussion, it's something that I still think is like, in many ways, still quite early in its history. So you know, that's the reason why they get excited about it, you know, as a, as a medium, but I appreciate too what you're saying is like, also something about this idea of maybe it's, it's just as well, something to about a generation of folks, you know, and as well, you know, if if not a generation a cohort, right, because I don't want to make it necessarily specific to one's age, right? But I think it may be a cohort of thinking and I think very much about the incredible show that Lynn Hershman Leeson has on right now at the New Museum. You know, I would say that Lynn is long part of this cohort, right? Or the incredible show that, you know, Lorraine O'Grady has just closed at the Brooklyn Museum. But like these are individuals who have been part of the cohort of engaging performance and new media in ways that have radicalized and created ecstatic possibilities for what this next generation of thinkers and makers can do. And in this moment, now, it took the the pathway between their generation to present right almost to have that audience created around the work, which is what is so phenomenal. So, you know, it's kind of this, this possibility of a certain kind of time travel, because many of the artists who are, you know, super young and making work right now, I think that it is the time into the future that will really continue to show us their depth of contribution. And that we're only just beginning to understand it. Because as I said, right, we're still very young in some of these materials.

Ben Fino-Radin 21:55

Speaking personally, as someone who can be a little bit pessimistic about tech's impact on society, I was so inspired and reinvigorated really, that although you share many of these perspectives, and you cover some of the darker aspects of how tech can mirror and even magnify, you know, some of the harms of the world. Despite all this, you still have a bright optimism about the enduring potential for creativity and positive community on the internet today. So given that I'm curious, you know, if your teenage avatar, LuvPunk12 was coming of age on today's internet, where do you think they would be hanging out?

Legacy Russell 22:40

I love that question. I am an optimist in many ways, I'm like, certainly a realist, but I'm also an optimist. Those two things I think people sometimes find surprising that they can coexist. I don't think that it is necessary for there to be a narrative of harm based digital media, right harm based internet, harm based cyberspace, set aside as distinct and separate from a digital space, a cyber space that can be emancipatory, and exciting, and, and strategic and community building that is generative, right, and, you know, engages different models of future, I think those two things can coexist. And that's part of why it's really difficult to have these conversations, because it isn't simple, right? Because actually, these things are all intertwined with one another in the exact same ways that they are away from our screens. And I do recognize that, you know, as people have written about these different models of presence, and too models of publics, and accountability and responsibility and representation, that at points there's been right, these kind of fierce boundaries and limits set on either or right like, either in physical space or online, these are the rules of what happens there. But that, you know, the great task of what this work is, is really to understand that there are no rules. And that that is part of what makes it so absolutely terrifying is that the rules are constantly changing. And the application of these technologies, right also is constantly changing. So you know, when I think about like, my baby self, right, like LuvPunk12, you know, coming of age on the internet, I think that you know, what was amazing as I spoke to people over many years of time, because the writing around this did not begin with the interest of having it exist in print form, it was something that began as a sort of process research in cyberspace, right. And then like, took years for me to kind of come to the place where it felt like maybe this was what it needed, right, that it needed to exist in this other format. But that, you know, in the discussions that happened in between, really the common thread was that there are so many people who have engaged the digital as a place to find themselves, right in so many ways. And that that actually is not something that breaks out as tied to age or location, or generation or politic, even right but the actually the through line is that there are so many people who are trying to do this work to just figure out what it means to be a body and exist on the internet and have that be something that actually is both fixed and mutable, at the same time. So you know, within this moment of platforms, I think like a LuvPunk12, you know, or, you know, a version of my younger self, a platform, like maybe like Somewhere Good, which is like this new platform that's kind of on the rise of sorts and thinking about ways to create intersectional space, critical space, vigorous space on the internet, I would say like, that would be maybe a place that I would have gone to, if that was, you know, existing in the 90s, like the idea too of have having a place where we are able to kind of share different parts of ourselves, I've always appreciated like the duality and symbiosis between and across Twitter versus like a platform like Instagram, I'm somebody who has always loved as well like the culture around a Vine, or even a Tumblr in its early stages, right. And I think these these are ones that are, of course, now out of date, but certainly, you know, when I think about what they offered in terms of different models of visual culture, that they've done so much to contribute to these other platforms that now exist and are in constant use in our day to day today. So you know, my hope is for the future, that perhaps there will be kind of constant moments of redressing right, like asking questions about the ways in which some of the power of these larger platforms can be taken back. And then different spaces that can be more alternative or offer different sites of discourse and dialogue can be made possible.

Ben Fino-Radin 26:35

I think, part of the work that your book is doing in bringing more intersectionality to cyber feminism and being more queer and trans inclusive. It really, you know, reminds me of a conversation that's happening in the conservation world more and more these days about really acknowledging and discussing how conservation is not neutral and the decisions about what to treat and what to care for, and what to fix defines and shapes history, truly. So I'm curious, in your research, what are some stories or voices from this history of glitch feminism that haven't been told? Or have been lost?

Legacy Russell 27:16

Wow, that's a deep question. Um, well, not to keep harping on Vine. But I will say like, Well, I mean, I'm gonna, I'll harp on it, because I actually just think it's like, it actually is a kind of amazing question. And I feel such a sense of panic, for lack of a better word, when I see the amazing archives that are being created on other platforms, like, you know, on Instagram on Tik Tok, what have you, right? Like there are, you know, and then someone basically has their account reported on and entire archive is gone, right? That's essentially what's happening. So when you think about the vulnerability of what really are like performance archives that are being produced at a scale, and a frequency that is faster and more vast than we have ever seen in history, the danger or the devastation of the platform, shutting down is the equivalent of burning down a building. Right? And is, that's essentially what it is. And I feel so impassioned about this as for artists to think about, like what that means, because, you know, it is monumental to think about these gaps in history in ways where parts of what really should be preserved as these kind of monuments to not only the technologies, but how they're being used, and who the people are, who are kind of key stakeholders within that production, right? within the economy of it within the circulation of it. But you know, as well to consider how that can, you know, have different lives over time. Right. And so, you know, one question that I often ask myself is, like, you know, in the future, as we look back, and we think about, you know, as a curator, if one work to produce, right, an exhibition that, you know, we engage as different touchpoints across technologies and these platforms and the question of performativity, which is something that, you know, I think many people continue to wring their hands about, it's like, you know, where, where is that? Where is it possible? How, what is the work that needs to happen now, to make sure that, that that story can be told. So, you know, link rot, certainly is a part of that bigger picture, too, you know, I think very much so about My Space, and Angelfire and Geocities, like, these are different platforms, where I feel like that people used them as canvases and really incredible ways. And to the point of even right now, right, I'm thinking about even like Limewire, right, from a kind of sonic perspective, that the ways that these different tools and engines can be replicated or re shown, presents very unique challenges. And so, the possibility of erasure or invisibility or obsolescence, right becomes really critical within that, and almost maybe a kind of part of the memory of the technology or the failure of its memory, which maybe is what the exercise is perhaps that the whole idea is that you are creating, we are all creating right performances on these different platforms, feeding into these different channels, modes of our creativity, always at the brink of having it just cease to exist altogether. Right? And so like something about that is really devastating to me, which is why, like, you know, I think I'm someone who constantly is like trying to back things up, I see things online, I'm like, I'll put this in an amazing Dropbox folder, and I have to send it to myself. And you know, I'm like constantly thinking about the ways where like, there can be like multiple places that some of the amazing things that are existing as material digitally, right can have like, like multiple historical records, because I don't think that they are of minimal consequence, I think these things actually are so so important, and say so much about the condition of being a human being in the world. And so for the future, right, like, that's my great crisis that I certainly share with many conservators, it's like how do we think about the the mammoth task it takes to do some of that care work outside of the technologies, right? It's even just about to the power of these platforms, right to make visible or not, or to preserve or not, right, by the sheer possibility of their existing at all. These different generations, I think of internet are certainly a part of what that looks like. And the ways in which people are quite literally building kind of a collective consciousness in thinking through the different chapters of what it means to engage digitally and by various technologies.

Ben Fino-Radin 31:24

Yeah, you know, and something that struck me while reading the book, and seeing these screenshots of kind of performative works that existed on Instagram or other platforms is that you know, in some cases, if if these don't ever find institutional homes, that chapter in your book might be the only place that you know an art history student 50 years from now, I can see any evidence of that artwork ever existing.

Legacy Russell 31:53

There are so many things that I see online that I like I like every day, I'm thinking to myself, Oh, my God, like someone has to save this right? And so, you know, I'm hoping in the the archives of the future, whatever that looks like, and kind of this like landscape with like, much digital detritus that there, of course, will be many people like I you know, and all the screenshots people take and the, you know, the kind of technologies that people keep of the different generations of phones and such that, like, perhaps a future version of a collective archive will certainly be about what is discovered there. Right. So I think a lot about that. And I agree, like it was actually one of the parts of what made me think deeply about what it means to have any of the work writing essaying around glitch feminism exists online versus in print form, that actually these things serve different parts of history. And so my hope is that they can remain in conversation with one another.

Ben Fino-Radin 32:46

So I know this interview is catching you kind of at an inflection point, you are the new director of The Kitchen, which is so exciting, but you haven't started yet.

Legacy Russell 32:54

I'm spiritually in both places right now, let's just say, yeah.

Ben Fino-Radin 32:58

So you know, despite the fact that you haven't started yet, I was hoping to, to whatever extent you can, that you can share kind of what your vision for The Kitchen is?

Legacy Russell 33:09

I have such excitement about this next chapter of The Kitchen for several reasons. One is because this idea of the experimental is so wonderful, and ecstatic and generous, right, but also something that is so troubling and challenging. And, you know, experimental as part of what The Kitchen's work has been, has been so central to its history. And so the reason why I feel so deeply thrilled to be stepping into this role, but also like really pushing my sleeves up to begin to think critically about how parts of this question of experimental right can be brought into today's conversation into the celebration of The Kitchen's 50th year is to be thinking actively about, you know, this idea of experimental intersecting with questions of privilege and access and presence, right, that the idea of being experimental has has always been assumed as being something that, you know, is possible for many, right. And in reality, actually, when we kind of really closely examine the notion of the avant garde the notion of experimental work, right, there are as much parts of it that can be rarefied and made exclusive as there are for anything else. And that is, I think the thing that, you know, is one of the great challenges of this next chapter of the institution is to be active and aware about the ways in which these definitions can be, you know, both scrutinized and exalted, and refracted and redefined all of this too being part of a really important and kind of loop of continuity between other organizations around the city. So you know, of course, we think about this idea of the avant garde, were thinking to about the ways in which Studio Museum being founded in 1968 was only you know, several years before The Kitchen right? Across the city, there were these two major moments of art history that kind of came up within, you know, a five year arc of one another, and, you know, really have transformed in their own right, what experimental really should look like? How do you give artists, the space to take epic and incredible risks? The vision really right now is to think about how that can be pushed even further, that this idea of risk taking is something that I think has both ebbed and flowed across the questions of institutional presence across many different places and spaces. I do recognize that, you know, throughout the course of a pandemic and a world crisis, right, often the reaction to crisis is to become more conservative, right. And, you know, within this is a great opportunity to kind of refuse that. So for me, I'm, you know, certainly committed to this moment, because I recognize that the role that The Kitchen plays as much as the role of the Studio Museum plays in this same period is so critical, and giving artists a place to grow, and not a place only to arrive fully realized, right, but rather actually in progress. The question of the avant garde is something that I'm really curious about, and I think that not everyone has been included within this idea of experimental space, I think that, you know, the ways in which that these things have played out across art history are actually kind of amazing, because sometimes the spaces created to refuse certain paradigms, right, actually, you know, as they grow, just by nature, they become institutions in their own right. So it becomes the responsibility of the institution, to ask the question of, you know, how do you kind of allow yourself to keep changing and transforming, so that these systems right are in constant interrogation, right, they're in constant motion, and have the capacity to be expanded and redefined. So you know, I'm really invested in what these next steps are, because I truly believe right, that a greater inclusivity of what experimental can be can be a part of this vision for the kitchen, and really, too a vision for what the future of art should look like right now. Because I think that, you know, many of our amazing institutional peers across this period of time, the points that have been most successful, were the points where people allowed for experimentation to be made possible in a moment that felt impossible. And so, you know, this is the great task, I think of the future of the institution more broadly, like, you know, as we think about what that can even be, what should institutions even look like, is, you know, the ways to build in that flex space to have things be both elastic, and as well visioned. And so, you know, I'm super committed to thinking about the artists who are part of that next step, and as well to the ways in which The Kitchen can be of best support to some of that progress. And that is part of what these next steps will look like.

Ben Fino-Radin 37:50

Amazing. And, you know, I think that what you're saying, and a lot of ways speaks to the broader calls for institutional change with regards to equity and inclusion, and really just questioning the ways that institutions were built, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about that.

Legacy Russell 38:10

I think change is not an event, I think about that often, because I do appreciate that some of what has occurred over this past year and a half has made us all feel at points as if a switch was flipped, right, and that certain things happened overnight. But in reality, you know, much of what has continued to culminate in this moment right now, really is a symptom and a product of all the things that have happened that have brought us to this point. And so institutions certainly are part of that, in terms of the storytelling of it, and to your point, the parts of it that are deeply mired in systems of supremacy, I think, you know, within this idea of a future space of institution, I recognize that the amazing and, you know, challenging and terrifying exercise of many institutions and kind of creative spaces, is to kind of let go of, of the idea of what a space should be, you know, I think that there's so much within these histories that unfortunately, was not built to love us. And so, you know, like to answer to the histories of now, right, like when people are going inside of various institutional spaces, and they are expecting to see themselves, right, that that actually as an act, and possibility is something that is still being built, largely because these systems historically have not always supported that nor made it possible. So, you know, again, you know, to your point of this question of conservation, like what is kept and maintained versus what is not right is really a show of sort of values of systems, right and ways in which too people express their vast and varied biases. I think it's helpful to to kind of look at the broader scope of institutions in the world right now. And think about that the you know, great joy of a future institutional space is one that really fully embeds itself in answering to the challenges and questions and, and tasks of the community around it. And that isn't always easy. I think, you know, it will come with a points with a lot of tenderness and hard work and confusion and debate, largely because, you know, to the point of constituents and publics right, it is not always clear, right, the ways in which different institutions historically, and as they invest in a future, build, what those publics are, and make investments into that right, some of that can feel quite actually opaque. So I recognize that it's a unique time for some of that building. And I think that the criticisms tied to, you know, labor and equity and histories right like that, actually, it's a really necessary part of what this growth is. And you know, being comfortable being uncomfortable at points and being willing to allow for artists to provide feedback to the institution that that actually should be a natural part of what that collaborative work of production and creative presence should be.

Ben Fino-Radin 41:08

Legacy Russell, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope to be as smart as you someday.

Legacy Russell 41:13

Oh, my gosh, I'm so honored to have your amazing questions. I've been so so just thrilled to be in discussion with you. So I so appreciate you inviting me.

Ben Fino-Radin 41:22

And thank you, dear listener for joining us for this conversation. If you haven't already, be sure to pick up a copy of Glitch Feminism. I truly think it is one of the most relevant texts of our time. If you liked what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. We're putting out new episodes every week. And please do share the episode with a friend leave a review on Apple podcasts. All of that helps immensely. Art and Obsolescence is a sponsored project of the New York Foundation for the Arts. If you'd like to make a tax deductible gift to support our work, head on over to artandobsolescence.com Thanks for listening. My name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.