Episode 004: Pam Kramlich
Ben Fino-Radin 0:00
From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, we talk to artists, collectors, curators, conservators and more people who are shaping the past, present and future of art and technology. Welcome back to all of our subscribers, and if you're new here, hello, it's great to have you here. And boy did you tune in at a great time because today I have a real treat in store for you. Today is my first sit down on the show with an art collector and in some ways, it would be selling her short to refer to Pam Kramlich and her husband Dick Kramlich, merely as collectors. More than 30 years ago, they dedicated themselves fully to not only building a world class collection of time based media art, but in doing so also dedicating themselves fully to funding initiatives like the New Art Trust, and Matters in Media Art, and really just giving emerging professionals in this field as it was developing space to collaboratively develop best practices for acquisition, display and long term care of time based media art. For Pam, it all really began in 1992, on a visit to Documenta where she encountered a piece unlike any she had ever seen before.
Pam Kramlich 1:20
By the time Dick and I got married and we joined the museum and started going on these art trips, the most exciting art that I saw that the art that moved me was the art that moved and talked. And I think the first really impressive work was Tall Ships of Gary Hill, I was very impressed by that you walked into a room, it was an experience, you went down a long, dark hallway and all these images started coming out from the walls, these black and white images. And they'd be different age people and different types of people. And yet they all were welcoming. They begged you to interact with them as much as you could. And then at the end, there was a small child who had her arms outstretched. And that was a kind of moving experience in there. And I thought, wow, this is something different. Of course, Dick was working in technology anyway, down in Silicon Valley, looking for companies that changed your way of thinking about things and doing things. And so I thought that this work, which was changing my way of thinking about our work, and about what I saw around me. It just seemed very prescient and something that I became very interested in.
Ben Fino-Radin 2:42
So it sounds like that was kind of the lightbulb moment.
Pam Kramlich 2:45
Well, it was an I think it was even enhanced by John Caldwell, who was leading our collectors forum group at the time. And Jack Lane coming on board as the director. Both of them has started the Carnegie International. And then they came to our museum and they were looking to the future. John knew that I was kind of interested in doing something different. And we had so many wonderful collectors in our group who were doing the painting and sculpture area that if I could make a contribution, it might be in another area. And so I thought that why didn't I take on the technical area, since you know it sort of did fit with Dick and what he was doing. And and also I was just enchanted by the reactions I was having to this artwork. So we've decided that I'd pick up on that and he introduced us to the work of Dara Birnbaum and we bought Break-in Transmission, Tiananmen Square. And then that was it still is one of my favorite pieces in the collection. And I think one of the most important pieces because of how it is even relating to world events 10 years later.
Ben Fino-Radin 3:54
So that first Dara Birnbaum piece that he collected, what was it like trying to install and live with such a large and technologically involved piece in a home, you know, that really wasn't built for it?
Pam Kramlich 4:05
Well, the interesting thing is our home is really very traditional. In fact, it was built in the 20s by one of the engineers on the Golden Gate Bridge, and is kind of like an Italian Tudor. But it's sort of, it's not one or the other, but a little bit of both. And to put this kind of artwork in this house is really not something that anybody who think would work. So when Dara came to talk to us about the installation, we looked around and I said Dara you can put it anywhere you want. And she chose the stairwell. So we have all these little monitors on pipes coming out of the wall in the ceiling that hold these little monitors and the speakers.
Ben Fino-Radin 4:50
This experience and the challenges of installing a complex time based media installation in a historic home must have left a lasting impression on Pam, as in some ways it ultimately led to what would become an all consuming project lasting two decades to conceive of, and build a new home one purpose built to serve as the optimal environment for exhibiting and caring for time-based media art. Now just an editor's note here, before I hand it back off to Pam, in a moment, she's going to mention her friend Jacques, she's referring to Jacques Herzog, as in Herzog and de Meuron you know, like the world class architects…
Pam Kramlich 5:30
The project came together because of what Jacques said to me one day said, if you ever want to build a house, where you can live with your art collection, we would like to do it for you. And so what did that mean, to me, it meant a journey, because I'd never built anything, and neither had they for for a collection like ours. And so I, I was asked to put down on paper, what I what I thought I needed. And so they came back to me a few months later with two little boxes. And one box had what I had asked for, which was sort of a sort of squarish pavilion with little cubicles, and that that would be sort of like screening rooms. And then Jacques pulled the lid off of the other one. And in it was a double helix of what looked like film. And I thought, wow, I mean, this is totally different. But it looked really exciting to me, because the medium is about film in a way. So it seemed logical. So we went off in that direction. And we were on a difficult journey, because they were trying to fit them that idea on a piece of property that was too small. This started in 97. And we worked through a number of designs, then in 99, we bought another piece of property. And that's where the existing house is, the property allowed us to dig a huge basement. So when you come up the hill to that property, you come into an underground space, which is like a cut in the side of the hill. And on that level, you have an exhibition space, that's probably about 10,000 square feet, plus other gallery spaces around it, including a screening room. And then you have a staircase that goes up to a mezzanine, which was going to be back of the house. It's now our master bedroom. And and another area that is a conference room and also gallery. And then the top floor is the glass house, which is where they created this curved wall structure that was indicated by their first design. And that was very difficult to build. As we got into it, we realized that the technology wasn't really up to what they had envisioned. So we were challenged with how could we fit this idea into something that we could actually build. So I think that's why this project took so much time is that we were also way ahead of what was actually physically possible. So I think that's one of the reasons why we've simplified it to something that actually we love living in it has so much light in it. It's wonderful in the rain because the overlook overhanging 6000 square foot roof of stainless steel gives you this curtain of water all the way around the glass box.
Ben Fino-Radin 8:17
So now hopefully you have a sense of the lay of the land and the architecture and with that as a foundation. Pam is going to take you and I on a little virtual walking tour of the collection…
Pam Kramlich 8:29
if you come in the bottom floor. On the left you see Marina Abramovic 's Cleaning the Mirror in a little cutout in the side of the wall. And that's outside the glass doors. You walk through glass doors, and you come into a hallway, which has work by Vito Acconci and those are wall works. And then you come into a recessed area that has Dara Birnbaum's attack. On the left side at the bottom of the circular staircase is Matthew Barney's sculpture of drawing restraint nine. And if you turn right to the screening room, you have an orange room with chairs from a theater in Turin by Carlo Mollino, and then you go into another space that has Bruce Nauman's Okay, okay. So then if you go back toward the sculpture, there's a big door that goes into the actual exhibition space and that has about 12 works. So you do start with Pierre Huyghe's Human Mask, and the other side is Mircea Cantor's Sic Gloria Mundi. There's a work by Taryn Simon work by Joseph Beuys. Now there by the Wilson twins Shirin Neshat. Richard Mosse, William Kentridge, Steve McQueen, James Coleman, and then a big installation of Richard Mosse's. And and then there's also one wonderful work of Matthew Barney from the very beginning of his career. Which is a unique work Scab Action that's also in that that section. And then in the terrace gallery, we have a work by Vallie Export. And so that's pretty much the lower floor. There's some monitors in the hallway on the way back toward the front door that have Martha Rosler and Joan Jonas. So that's that floor. If you go upstairs on the floor of where we live, actually our personal area, we have worked by Christian Marclay. We have a painting and also a work from the series he did with gum on the streets and you know, different straws. I don't know exactly, you know, it's hard to describe that one. And then also on that floor was the exhibition of the drawings of the architects, the architectural drawings, and the and the models. And then there's also work on that floor by Tony Conrad, Yellow Mirror. And then there are two photographs by Warhol and a number of Billy Name's, photographs of the studio. There's a Joseph Beuys on that floor, and then you go up to the pavilion. And there we have Gary Hill and Nam June Paik, and Matthew Barney. Right now we've loved this particular group of works together. And we are planning to do a book catalog of this particular exhibition with, we've been collecting essays from different people that we've asked to write them. And hopefully, we'll have a good record of it. And then we'll go on. And we also have actually, three other exhibitions planned already to follow it. So I'm thrilled that after 20 years, we have something that makes sense, and that we're using in a very exciting way and that people are appreciating what they're seeing. And, you know, this is just the first show we've done from the collection, I hope I get to see a lot more of it, before I leave the planet.
Ben Fino-Radin 11:59
Now, I know all of this sounds pretty ambitious. But during the time, the Kramlichs, were planning and building the collection and the facility to display and live with it, that is definitely not all that they were up to.
Pam Kramlich 12:14
I thought we should do something about preservation. And so that was when we formed New Art Trust that was with Tate, MoMA and SFMOMA, we were involved with the Tate anyway, and also loved MoMA and had gotten to know the some of the people there. So we asked the directors of both institutions and and also, of course, our own director, Jack Lane, if they would be interested in coming on board and creating New Art Trust with me. And and they did they said, why not?
Ben Fino-Radin 12:43
And just for those who aren't familiar, what is the New Art Trust? What what were its initial goals?
Pam Kramlich 12:48
We wanted to standardize practices, best practices for the field. And so we created Matters in Media, which was a website that I guess was the go to place in the beginning.
Ben Fino-Radin 12:59
Well by and large, it really still is, I still refer folks getting started to the Matters in Media Art website, you know, even though there are some parts of it that could use updating, it's, it's still pretty intensely comprehensive.
Pam Kramlich 13:10
Well, that's good, I'm so glad because that was really what we intended to do. And I hope now that we can even enliven that platform with all the different things that are happening now that are going to really change the way we used to do things, and probably for the years to come with all the technological advances that allow us to share this collection, and this kind of work in a different way. And buy and sell it differently. I mean, we were talking about that this morning. It's just amazing with this NFT craze that's going on right now. What is that going to mean for all of us in the art world? There is the this sort of standard way of selling it on the from the galleries where you have the original, and then you have these editions. And actually the buying and selling of artwork has also been questioned because the artist doesn't participate in the auction market after his work is sold to in three times. And so a lot of these things, I think, are coming up now with maybe possible solutions. We you know, we're all wondering how that $69 million token work this Beeple thing? Who's going to buy it next? And will it be sold or not sold? And if so, will it be the same price? Or won't be the same price mean? How does all that work? It'll be interesting to see if it does have merit in the world of the future.
Ben Fino-Radin 14:32
So it sounds like you're pretty optimistic about their potential.
Pam Kramlich 14:35
I think it would be wonderful, actually because they need the resources to continue creating. And I've always wondered without those of us who were buying these editions, how they would manage to do that because to film things is so much more expensive, actually then a canvas and brushes and paint. So I am hoping that that there is some way they can continue to, you know, have the rewards, I think it's going to be really exciting to watch what comes out of this. I think everybody is frantically trying to come up with possibilities and solutions and all that sort of thing and and find out where the ownership rights are. And, and there's security aspects of it. And also the information around each one of the pieces, which of course, I've cared about. I think that's the preservation conservation side, we need to know whether it is the original, and where's the title to that artwork? And who has the royalties? and that sort of thing. Always the artists have had the royalties, well, you know, is that going to be secure at this point? So I don't know. I mean, I just think there's a lot of work to be done going forward.
Ben Fino-Radin 15:46
I'm curious, Pam, I mean, when you first saw that Gary Hill piece, and you really decided to hone in on time-based media, did you have any idea what you were getting yourself into in terms of all of these complexities with collecting and preservation?
Pam Kramlich 16:00
Now I really didn't think about it in the beginning, I just sort of always thought that film would be there. And it was really interesting work. And it was four or five years into collecting it, that we started to realize that we were going to have to be serious about the material that it was made on, and that that wasn't going to be the same for very long that it was going to keep changing. So that's what keeps us busy is we have to get it's not a it's not a painting on the wall that you can leave there for 20 years. And, you know, just make sure that the lighting is right, and that it is cleaned once in a while and that somebody doesn't bump into it. You know, these things actually are changing all the time.
Ben Fino-Radin 16:41
I'm curious how how have you and Dick approached collecting? Do you tend to hone in on any particular themes, you know, or are you just purely intuitive?
Pam Kramlich 16:50
Very often, I've been inspired by the people who want me to see something special, I really credit John Caldwell a lot for getting us into this field. He was also the person that introduced us to Thea Westreich who we worked with for 10 years as our consultant and that was a wonderful learning experience. There were no books in those days to go to, to learn about this field. I mean, we had to go and actually see the material. And so it required a lot of traveling, which I did, I remember going to one of Bill Viola's shows that the Reina Sofia in Madrid, and that was a really wonderful experience as well. And so the travel that came along with the investigation was as as informational and educational as, as all the rest of it. So it really enhanced our lives. And, and so I think that's how I'm inspired to go and see things. It's been through gallery exhibitions, museum exhibitions, artists, studio visits, somebody's talking about some work that they saw that they were extremely influenced by, moved by. And so that's kind of the trail I've been following. But I have to say that Thea was a wonderful guide, and she introduced me to a lot of work that was it has become extremely important in the collection that was then it's even more so now. And I just I really looked for things that I couldn't forget, you know that that really made such an impression on me because they were saying something about what was going on in my life or in the world and really just talked about humanity in a way that was important to me. So those that was what guided the collection. And looking back on it now what I feel like I need to do when I look at look for artwork is I want work to be relative to the world I'm living in. So that, you know, 100 years from now, people will look back and try to understand the issues that we're dealing with today. I mean, we have all these political issues, we have philosophical issues, we have global warming issues, you know, should we use the fuels we're using? I mean, we have all of these issues, and I think it plays into to a lot of the artwork that we're seeing. I mean, I know recently, we bought a work of David Claerbout, which is Meditation on Fire. And it's because we've had the fire so close to us in the Napa Valley and so close to the to the building that we were talking about. You know, we're worried about climate change, there's no question about it. And so there's a lot of wonderful work being done that's commenting on that. So I think those are the things that I'm looking to is an even like Tiananmen Square. I mean, we've just had that again in Hong Kong, the issues of freedom of everything. And, you know, I think these pieces invite conversation and investigation. I mean, if you think about it, Guernica did the same thing. And Goya did the same thing, and I think that the artists who leave us meaningful work have always commented the world around them.
Ben Fino-Radin 17:40
I love that idea of really embracing the the time and the place that you were active in building the collection. So Pam, you are a pro at this point and much like Dick was in Silicon Valley long before it was Silicon Valley. You've been collecting long before the art market was what it's become today. I'm curious, from your perspective, in what ways Have you seen the art world change most significantly over the years?
Pam Kramlich 20:33
Gosh, well, I think it what really changed it a lot were the art fairs. I think those have happened within my lifetime. And, and I mean, that I think opened the world up to a lot more excitement around art, because it became an event, you know, something that they could look forward to, and which a lot of people could go to and interact with their friends and get excited about sharing what they were interested in. I don't know. It just sort of enlivened things in a way.
Ben Fino-Radin 21:05
Do you still go?
Pam Kramlich 21:06
Yeah, I do. I mean, it's, I go more, because I love to see everybody. And that's important to me, and, and but for for my kind of work for the kind of work we've collected, I usually have seen it before I get there. And that's, as I said before, with much appreciation to the people who have followed our, our collection, and then introduce us to what they think we should see. So I'm always very thankful for that. Those relationships.
Ben Fino-Radin 21:38
And as we wrap up here, I'm curious, is there any parting advice that you'd like to leave for any aspiring art collectors that might be listening?
Pam Kramlich 21:46
Focus, find something that you really love and focus on it. And it's really fun. And like I said, it was really a thrill to be the only one doing it for a while for a very short while. But for that moment, I mean, it gave me a lot of confidence,
Ben Fino-Radin 22:03
Pam Kramlich, thank you so, so much for joining me today for this conversation. It was a real treat. And thank you for all of the support that you and Dick have given to the field of time based media conservation over the years.
Pam Kramlich 22:14
Well, thank you. And I've enjoyed knowing you over the years too. And I really am so proud of what you're doing for all of us. So anyway, well, thank you, Ben.
Ben Fino-Radin 22:28
And, as always, thank you, dear listener for joining us for this conversation. If you enjoyed hearing about the Kramlich Collection, and you're a real art and architecture and nerd like me, and you want to see deeper inside the collection and the incredible facility that Pam and Dick built for it, you're in luck because they recently published a book titled The Kramlich Residence and Collection which is absolutely bursting with pictures of this truly one of a kind home for time-based media art. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to this show. You'll find us on Spotify, Apple podcasts Stitcher, really wherever you get your podcasts, we're putting out new episodes every week. You can also find the show on Instagram and Twitter @ArtObsolescence. Do share the show with a friend or colleague leave a review on Apple podcasts. All that helps immensely. Art and Obsolescence is a sponsored project of the New York Foundation for the Arts. If you'd like to support the show, you can find a link to make a tax deductible donation at artandobsolescence.com Thanks for listening. My name is Ben Fino-Radin. And this has been Art and Obsolescence.