Episode 031: The Advice Episode
Show Notes
Over the first nine months and thirty episodes of this little podcast we have heard the stories of some incredible guests: artists, curators, collectors, conservators, and more – and the nuggets of wisdom that they have shared along the way have been truly invaluable. This week we're trying something a little bit new, and we’re calling it The Advice Episode - compiled on this week’s show are all of the moments of our guests sharing hard earned expertise and advice. Featuring in order of appearance: Rafael Lozano-Hemmer, Magda Sawon, Lynn Hershamn Leeson, Cy X, Tina Rivers Ryan, American Artist, Gary Hill, Bridget Donahue, Pavel Pyś, Pip Laurenson, Asti Sherring, Christine Frohnert, Glenn Wharton, sasha arden, Patricia Falcao, Kayla Henry-Griffin, Christianne Paul, Chrissie Iles, Pam Kramlich, Robert Rosenkranz, and Legacy Russell. Enjoy, and as always you can find the full transcript below!
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology.
Welcome back folks at 31 episodes, nine months in on this little podcast, we have talked to some incredible guests and the kernels of wisdom that they have shared along the way. I know that I personally have found to be incredibly invaluable. And buckle up because we are only getting started. The spring is shaping up to be one amazing guest after another. I normally don't do this, but here's a little sneak peek at the list of folks we'll be hearing from in the coming weeks: Ebony L. Haynes, Lauren Cornell, Miriam Bennani, Kandis Williams, WangShui, Emma Dickson, Richard Bloes, Gabby Wijers, and Dragan Espensheid. Now, if you want to hear more behind the scenes updates, we are trying something a little bit new for the show. We have started a Patreon and we're still of course, fiscally sponsored by the New York Foundation for the Arts. So if one time tax deductible gifts are more your speed, you can still head on over to art and obsolescence.com/donate but if small, monthly donations are more, your speed. That is a great way you can help the show and our mission of paying the artists that you are hearing from on the show. You can now do just that by going to patreon.com/artobsolescence and there are fun little perks to thank you for your support. I'll be sharing all kinds of patron, only exclusive content over there. So I hope that you will check it out.
Now, like I said at the top, we have heard from 30 folks over the last nine months, and many of these guests have shared advice for aspiring artists, conservators curators, And more. So we're trying something a little bit new this week and I am calling it the advice episode. We've compiled here, all of the kernels and nuggets of wisdom that guests have shared over the last nine months into a little compilation for you. And if you're wondering, who said what you can find the full transcript as always artandobsolescence.com. Without further delay, let's kick things off with advice for artists.
[00:02:08] Rafael Lozano-Hemmer: Make vectroial work. When you have a concept always try to go for the domestic scale. Something that you can afford, something that can be a proof of concept or a prototype or an artist proof, and then ensure that that concept can then grow. For example, if you're making a small animation, you can imagine, well, what would that be like at the size of a whole building or the size of a museum so that these works can actually scale up in ambition and allow you to create more independence, because the problem with a lot of media arts is that you're going into extremely expensive arrays of things. All you need to do is do a proof of concept of that in a smaller scale, document that well, and then somehow convince gallerists or collectors to invest in the bigger version of that maquette version that you've just made. So that's a robust way to not need a huge studio. You work in maquette scale only to be able to deliver once you've been paid a version that is a little bit more sizable
[00:03:17] Magda Sawon: Make money, but don't compromise. I still think compromise is the wrong thing in order to make money.
[00:03:25] Lynn Hershman Leeson: Keep your sense of humor. Don't let anybody tell you what to do and don't throw anything away.
[00:03:31] Cy X: Just because you are being made to pick between things doesn't mean you actually have to pick between them. Sometimes you can do both and sometimes you can do both and more, and sometimes you don't have to do either just approach everything from that deep sense of curiosity, but also that inner knowing, because that inner knowing is the thing that is helping you decide what you should give attention to and what deserves attention and maybe what also needs to be put on hold or put on pause or just connecting to that inner knowing and that curiosity and letting that lead you instead of false binaries and false limitations that are based off of scarcity.
[00:04:14] Tina Rivers Ryan: Whenever there are major shifts in the market, whenever there's major shifts in the discourse. It can be a little unsettling. It can make you sort of question the path that you're on sometimes. It's easy to feel a bit buffeted by the winds and. To lose faith or to have a kind of crisis of confidence and I think that the important thing to remember is that the work is the work and that doing good work is the most important thing. There will always ultimately be an audience for good work. You may not find that audience immediately, but I think eventually the work is seen and appreciated. I've known too many amazing media artists who were making art in the sixties who had nobody show up for them for a long time only to have their retrospectives, you know, 40, 50 years later. If you believe in the work that you're making, I think you stay the course, and I'm not saying to not be open and receptive, but to not be so easily shaken. And to also understand that the discourse that's happening right now, you know, there are many art worlds and there are many audiences and just because your work isn't for everybody or isn't for a particular moment or particular curator or a particular collector doesn't mean it won't find its audience, it won't find its people. And so I think community is actually one of the most important things in art and any art world, whether it's the crypto space or the mainstream art space or the digital art space or whatever, you just have to find your people and you make art for yourself and for them. You don't need to necessarily worry about fitting into an existing discourse. You make the discourse, right? You change the conversation. It's an incredible privilege if you're able to do that. But I think if you really believe in what you're doing, you have to have faith in that.
[00:05:54] American Artist: I had a lot of creative energy and I just didn't know how to build a life around that and wouldn't figure that out for many years after, but I think I would have told myself to like, not worry so much, you're not in a competition with others around you, because you have your own interest in what your life is going to bring and that's gonna be possible for you, as long as you like have that vision, I would just say not to worry because whatever you're after, like you'll be able to make it happen and it's going to be okay.
[00:06:28] Gary Hill: Be prepared for a long road. I think some people unfortunately think they're going to make a career, you know, the chances of that are minimal. You really have to find out whether you were born to do this. You know, you can't do anything else, and if that's not the case, then you're going to be confused for quite some time.
[00:06:53] Bridget Donahue: Just keep going. I always think the easiest thing for people to do is quit and that is very attractive to a lot of people. I mean, myself included, you know, so I think that the thing that I feel like I've really connected with other practices and admire is just people that continue to do what they're doing. You know, trends around them change. I'm just really, you know, proverbially, closing one's eyes and listening to your gut. There's kind of some mission you're on there just kind of keep going with what your gut is telling you and not getting too hung up on what you need to get something done. I mean, that can be a huge mental block. I think the biggest mental blocks are in our own minds. And sometimes we use things like, oh, if I had more money, if I had more of this and it's just finding ways to continue to do that.
[00:07:36] Pavel PyÅ›: Curators are really there to support you and to champion you and if they want to work with you, there's usually a really good reason why. I would encourage anyone if they're interested in a particular person or what someone is doing to reach out. I think that there's no harm in reaching out to people and asking for a phone call and asking for a conversation. And I think when it comes to curators, I think artists should be demanding of them but also not too disappointed if curators push back.
[00:08:06] Ben: We've also heard some great advice for folks that might be interested in getting into the field of time-based media, art conservation.
[00:08:13] Pip Laurenson: I think it's still important to get your hands dirty, you know, install stuff, artists go and shadow somebody doing that, make yourself useful. Intern in an artist studio, work with the installation crew on a media show. You know I think that kind of understanding how things go wrong is really foundational.
[00:08:37] Asti Sherring: I've really been recommending to emerging conservatives that heading down that field of independent research, really being honest with yourself and be like, this is what I get, these are my skills, but this is where I'm lacking, and then going out and doing more study or spending time working with people outside of the conservation community, digital specialists, film, projectionist, audio visual installation crew, contemporary art installation crew, and trying to really just become a sponge to all this kind of knowledge. One of the huge early influences for me was the galleries contracted electrician. I learnt so much from him. To me really stepping outside of the conservation field and being okay with not having the answers and listening to people who have had a different journey and a different experience.
[00:09:38] Christine Frohnert: Being interested in lifetime learning is certainty something that comes as a huge plus as. Technologies are developed as we speak. And artists will always be ahead of us before we can even think about developing a concepts, how to preserve. So it's really engaging and it's really inspiring. And again, it's centered around. Constantly learning. So if you are interested to become a conservator of contemporary art or more specifically time-based media, hopefully this will appeal to you also, besides the hard skills that you will learn equally important is for the future time is media conservator that they have very strong, soft skills and very strong communicators. As you will work in a highly collaborative environment. To communicate with different individuals from other fields of engineering or computer science or neon technician, AB engineers. So we certainly can't have the knowledge all by ourselves. So we are highly, highly dependent on. Collaborative spirits that also makes our community so wonderful. It's really a community of sharing.
[00:10:58] Glenn Wharton: Learn about the field. It's not for everybody. It's not well-paid it takes a lot of effort to get into the field, just to get into a graduate program and get some experience to see if it's for you. Do you like working in a laboratory on objects and then thinking about the different sort of sub-fields within the field. Do you gravitate more towards paintings or photographs or time-based media or archeological materials or physical structures and then investigate the graduate programs, cause they all have different areas of specialization. Join the American Institute for conservation and go to their website, explore it. Start reading articles. Maybe you can go to some meetings, professional meetings. So you hear lectures by professionals in the field and start building a network, get to know people in the field, because these are the people that are going, going to be writing your letters of reference to get into undergraduate school, but also pay real close attention to the courses you're taking. If you're an undergraduate to make sure that they. Are the courses that are required for these graduate programs, the art history, that studio art, the chemistry, and in the case of time-based media engineering electronics, and to build the, um, the transcript from the right kinds of courses, and then apply to graduate school.
[00:12:18] sasha arden: One really special thing about time-based media is that we all have a different skillset and set of interests coming into it. And I think that that is something that everyone should just embrace and go with. So if there's something that's you already know about and you want to stick with. Just go with that. If you're like me, and you're curious about everything, like go with it. There's no one track to get into this field. And there's so many things that you'll come across as a conservator. If you, you know, do that career path, the more that you can bring to this work, the better it's going to benefit, not only yourself, but the entire.
[00:13:10] Patricia Flaçao: Just ask. You shouldn't let your lack of experience and knowledge just stop you from wondering and asking. I just decided to write a master thesis on software based start preservation with very little knowledge of software and it turned out okay. Because you just learn as long as you're happy to do that, then it's fine. It's literally just finding the people that can help you and ask. Because my experience in the conservation field is that you will get replies from people that you would think, oh, they're super busy. They're not going to say anything. They're not going to answer my emails and you get those answers.
[00:13:50] Kayla Henry-Griffin: Take your time. I always thought to myself, oh, I have to go to graduate school right after undergrad, and I look back at it now and I think to myself, wow, I had all this time to do this, but I've rushed into things. I can't speak for everyone, but from who I've talked to who have also been archivist of color or conservators of color I think we feel rushed getting into this field. There's this notion that we have to present and do our best from the get-go rather than learning, doing trial and error, things of that sort. It's just a lot of pressure. I know for me, like, a Black queer non-binary person in this field I feel a lot of pressure. And this is specifically for anyone who is a cultural heritage worker who is queer or Black or non-binary I understand that pressure and it's okay to feel that pressure, but also realize that the work that you're doing now, or the experience that you will get from being in this field is going to be beneficial and support everyone and support yourself as well. You do belong here if you really do have a passion for cultural heritage work, you do belong in this field.
[00:15:09] Ben: Also we have of course talk to some incredible curators with decades of experience and they've passed down some great advice for today's aspiring curators.
[00:15:19] Christiane Paul: Follow the art really doing research about who is showing what, where worldwide, we are so much in. Broadcast yourself environment, where everybody is generating output and living ultimately in bubbles. And I'm not saying that the art world isn't a bubble, you know, but really I'm paying attention to what artists are doing, what institutions are doing, looking at the back end of all of that practice and getting a sense of what's going on in different art worlds, I think is so important. And yeah, for me, it's always been. Follow the art rather than coming up with curatorial ideas and then finding the artwork that kind of fits my ideas. Most of my shows have emerged from following artists and artwork, and that's where the idea originated. So I think really awareness rather than being focused on output and getting your own ideas out there is really crucial.
[00:16:24] Chrissie Iles: Challenge every colonial art historical idea you've been taught and challenge everything you think, you know, recognize where guests on indigenous land always be bold in your thinking and in finding a place for your ideas, support artists and listen to them. Always. Everything we do is about them. Don't be a performative ally. Do the real work, give up power and space to artists of color, amplify their work and listen, and figure out what you can meaningfully contribute there are many different ways to curate a small show in an independent space or a parking lot can be as meaningful and significant as a large museum exhibition they're all equally valuable critical I think is to find the space and the environment that best suits your own curatorial sensibility. Museums are not the only places where important curatorial work happens. So it's very important to find your own space where you can best express what you need to do. Curatorially. The other advice I would give is as you build X, always mentor others because it creates a community of exchange that builds the field and builds the community that is solid and meaningful. And that protects our work and artists from being instrumentalized. And of course always be open to new ideas and new thinking.
[00:17:46] Ben: We've had the pleasure of visiting with some collectors who had the following advice for anyone interested in building an art collection? No matter the size or the scale.
[00:17:55] Pam Kramlich: Focus, find something that you really love and focus on it.
[00:18:01] Robert Rosenkranz: I think collectors should collect in fields where they have the potential of buying the best. You know, if you're going to get a minor lithograph from Andy Warhol, well, okay. That's nice. And people know that you have an Andy world, but I just find collecting much more satisfying. If you can be kind of a pioneer, if you can go after the very best material in your field, if you can be more expert than most other people in that field, if you can learn more about it. To me, that's the satisfying thing to do as a collector. And time-based media is not a bad place for that mayor or work by young artists. Really fine works that you can buy for $1,500 or $5,000. I mean, the price points are extremely reasonable for young artists work relative to the kind of prices that you might think quality works of art command if you go to Sotheby's or Christie's or wander into Gagosian.
[00:19:06] Ben: And saving, perhaps my personal favorite for last back in September of last year, we visited with Legacy Russell who was just about to begin her tenure as The Kitchen's new director. And she had, what I would say is great advice for institutions and the people shaping them.
[00:19:23] Legacy Russell: Change is not an event. I think about that often, because I do appreciate that some of what has occurred over this past year and a half has made us all feel at points as if a switch was flipped, and that certain things happened over night, but in reality, you know, much of what has continued to culminate in this moment right now really is a symptom and a product of all the things that have happened that have brought us to this point. Institutions certainly are a part of that, um, in terms of the storytelling of it, and to your point, the parts of it that are deeply mired in systems of supremacy. Within this idea of a future space of institution , I recognize that the amazing and challenging and terrifying exercise of many institutions and kind of creative spaces is to kind of let go of, of the idea of what a space should be. You know, I think that there is so much within these histories that unfortunately was not built to love us. And so, you know, like to answer to the histories of now, right? Like when people are going inside of various institutional spaces, Um, are expecting to see themselves, right? That, that actually as an act and a possibility is something that is still being built largely because these systems historically have not always supported that nor made it possible. I think it's helpful too, to kind of look at the broader scope of institutions in the world right now, and think about that. The,, great joy of a future institutional space is one that really fully embeds itself in answering to the challenges and questions and, and tasks of the community around it, and that isn't always easy. I think, you know, it will come with at points with a lot of tenderness and hard work and confusion and debate. Largely because to the point of constituents and publics, right? It is not always clear, right? The ways in which different institutions historically, and as they invest in a future, build what those publics are and make investments into that. Right. Some of that can feel quite actually open. So I recognize that it's a unique time for some of that building. And I think that the criticisms tied to, you know, labor and equity and, and histories, right? Like that actually it's a really necessary part of what this growth is. And, you know, being comfortable, being uncomfortable at points and being willing to allow for artists to provide feedback to the institution that that actually should be a natural part of what that collaborative. Uh, production, , and creative presence should be.
[00:21:59] Ben: And there you have it folks in order of appearance, that was Rafael Lozano-Hemmer, Magda Sawon, Lynn Hershman, Leeson, Cy X, Tina Rivers Ryan American Artist, Gary Hill, Bridget, Donohue, Pavel Pyś, Pip Laurenson, Asti Sherring, Christina Frohnert, Glenn Wharton, sasha arden, Patricia Falcão, Kayla Henry-Griffin, Christiane Paul Chrissy, Iles, Pam Kramlich, Robert Rosenkranz and of course, Legacy Russell. Again, you can find the full transcript with attribution on these quotes artandobsolescence.com. I hope you enjoyed this week's special episode, we'll be back to our regular format next week, and if you want to help support the show and our ability to compensate the artists that come on the show, I do hope you'll check out our Patreon, you can become a patron of the show for as little as $1 a month and if only half of you that listen to the show joined at $5 a month. That would pay for one artist's fee and almost cover our operating costs. Again, that's patreon.com/artobsolescence. The link is also in the show notes. Thank you for joining me for another episode, my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin, and this has been Art and Obsolescence.