Episode 032: Ebony L. Haynes

Show Notes

This week on the show we are visiting with brilliant gallerist Ebony L. Haynes, who founded and runs 52 Walker, a David Zwirner gallery. As you'll hear in this episode, Ebony has crafted a space where she and the artists she works with are doing things differently. The installations are large, ambitious, and not exactly easy to collect — involving virtually every fathomable medium: multichannel video installations, kinetic light and sound installations, performance, and more. This coupled with the pace of programming of four shows a year - each one a solo show, each one results in a published book - it’s just sort of an art nerd’s dream. Not to mention that they recently launched a circulating library within the gallery. Tune in to hear Ebony's story!

Links from the conversation with Ebony
> https://www.52walker.com/
> https://www.davidzwirner.com/

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence. I'm your host Ben Fino-Radin and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology. Welcome back folks. This week on the show, we are visiting with a gallerist who I just had to have on the show. 

[00:00:18] Ebony: Hi, I'm Ebony L. Haynes senior director at David Zwirner. I run in program 52 Walker gallery. 

[00:00:24] Ben: As we'll hear in today's conversation at her gallery 52 Walker, Ebony has crafted a space where she and the artists that she works with are doing things differently. The installations are large, ambitious and not exactly easy to collect, involving virtually every fathomable, medium multichannel video installations, kinetic light, and sound installations, performance, and more. This coupled with the pace of programming of four shows a year, each one a solo show and each one resulting in a published book. It's really just an art nerd's dream. And I didn't even mention that she and her team recently launched a circulating library within the gallery. I am a fan. And I know that after today's episode, you will be too.

Before we get started though, a huge shout out to our very first ever two patrons over on Patreon thank you, Emily and Laura. Hello. Thank you. You're the best. Thank you so much for supporting the show. And as a reminder, we pay the artists that come on the show a $1,000 speaking fee to thank them for their time. And we're only able to do this, thanks to the generous support of listeners. Like you. This week, I'll be posting an exclusive clip from my extended chat with Ebony over on Patreon so, if you want to hear that you can head on over to patreon.com/artobsolescence. Now without further delay, let's dive into this week's chat with Ebony L. Haynes. 

[00:01:51] Ebony: I think gallery world was the last place that I expected to end up. I studied anthropology and music as an undergrad, and really, I had a couple of lives between undergrad and grad and thought I was going to be a writer, like an arts writer. I had been writing about a lot of things, including travel and music and ended up dabbling in some art where I was living and I'd studied photography briefly and I knew I wanted to work in something that was, creative and that had to do with the arts and was stepping away from music and interested in fine art. I was very interested in film and sound and photography. And I'd say my first real intro to the fine art world was a research fellowship with this entity called V Tape in Toronto, which is similar to EAI here in New York. And I come from a music background and I was just really interested in sound and kind of new media practices and this program was burgeoning at the time. It was an art criticism and curatorial practice program at OCAD university in Toronto. This grad program was really welcoming of interdisciplinary backgrounds. And where I thought not having an art history degree would be a problem, they welcomed it and actually were excited by what my position would bring to the program. And even then I thought I was going to be an arts writer, but lo and behold things shift in grad school. And it shifted quite a bit for me. in the past, the opportunity to intern with not just a gallery, but really it was any institution or art entity of my choice and I applied to five different places. All of them were in New York. I really wanted to come here just to experience a different art scene and community. And I accepted an offer from Foxy Production. A gallery that then was on 27th street in the infamous wind tunnels of Chelsea between 12th, 11th avenue. And it was such a wonderful experience. And after I graduated, I ended up working with Foxy Production for four and a half years. There wasn't the same kind of commercial gallery experience. And the atmosphere was very different in Toronto. There were fewer galleries and the infrastructure for the arts is quite substantial in that no artists need be reliant upon a gallery sale to survive. If you know what I mean. The arts grants in Canada are far beyond so many other countries that I've come across in terms of support for the arts. So there wasn't the need to participate in fairs, the word commercial, felt like it meant something different in Canada. And I really wanted to experience something else. I knew I didn't want to work in a museum pretty early and I thought I would end up in some form of public sector for the arts. But I wanted to experience a commercial gallery or just experienced the New York art world and what better way to experience that in a gallery? So I applied to three galleries, one museum and one publishing company. 

But I accepted an offer from Foxy Production and I regret nothing. It was the most amazing internship. They wanted to hire me and were generous enough to sponsor my visa. And I'm still here. Personally, I think a lot of it has to do with, they themselves were not American. And I think about that a lot when I talked to my own students and people who want to take a risk and go somewhere, or think that I'm doing a great deed by listening to them or giving them a chance or hiring them. My bosses has had to go through a visa and green card process of their own and knew that it might be worth taking a risk on somebody or that it's a minor investment for somebody who's going to be great for your, gallery or to work with. 

Foxy just seemed so cool. They had these collectives that were dealing with like vinyl print and vectors and sound installations and performances and multi-channel videos that were called digital drawings. You know, this was at a height of, for me anyways, exploring what non painting galleries were like. Foxy Production, even in their name, you know, they were at art fairs and were technically a commercial art gallery and still are, but didn't seem to fit in the same box. As some other galleries, mind you, this was coming from an outsider perspective, just looking in from Toronto felt like it would be exciting for me to be there, especially not having an art history background. It felt like, a program that really spoke to me. It was exciting for me. They always felt very sort of rigorous and involved. The two owners, it just felt like such a, team operation. We really discussed everything. We never outsourced a press release. We were involved in all of the curatorial decisions together and even the hanging and placing and new discoveries and discoveries of old things and putting together ideas. Really, it felt like a curatorial intensive for me actually, now that I'm thinking about it and I got to curate my first show in New York there they gave me a summer slot to do a group show and then I never looked back. 

 I feel so fortunate to have had the experiences I've had so far. I lucked out so much in the opportunities that were presented to me from Foxy Production, I went to Mitchell-Innes & Nash, it was just over a year that I was there, but left such an impression on my practice. Working with the team there, specifically getting to work with one of my favorite artists in the world, Pope L, working on projects that I still to this day recall and use as a reference for things to move forward from. A particular way of working as well. It was like, I could see myself in a larger gallery with more infrastructure that still didn't lose some great curatorial, ethos and practice in its roster. Like it was just very affirming for me to be there. And I went from Mitchell-Innes & Nash to Martos Gallery pretty quickly after being at Mitchell-Innes & Nash. And not because I wasn't happy at all, but the carrot that was being dangled was becoming ever more enticing by the owner, Josie Martos and the clincher was that he was moving from Chelsea. And at this point I'd been in Chelsea for about six years. He was moving from Chelsea to Chinatown in this new sort of wanting to revamp everything that is the gallery's identity, be a part of a new community. And it was a huge, 8,000 square foot space that was being built out from scratch and he also owns shoot the lobster gallery, which I became director of as well in New York. And I then subsequently opened shoot the lobster LA. So I was programming and curating three galleries. I was involved in the build-out. I was doing art fairs. I was pretty autonomous in my decisions. Worked really well with Josie Martos himself and started building the team. It was one contract or one document short of it, feeling like my own gallery. And it was really great. It was, I was there for almost five years. It wasn't one of the more highly visible galleries, you know, we, weren't always doing the biggest fairs, whatever that means to some people or maybe the biggest roster or the biggest space and Shoot The Lobster was quite modest and felt at times DIY in a way that I loved, you know, I installed all of those shows and programmed it myself and met the artist there at night and painted the walls with friends in it turned into something really great and a legacy I'm really proud of.

And it also informed me thinking about 52 Walker very directly. I mean, I was working in one model that was a bit more classical in terms of representation, doing art fairs, you know, have the artists list, have the exhibition history, the staff, and do all of those things. And then I would go to Shoot The Lobster at night and work with an artist that I was excited to see what they would do, just because we had the opportunity and it didn't matter if I worked with them ever again, or if anything sold or who represented them, you know, or if they were represented at all, like there were no boundaries and I always just wanted to kind of blend the two because it was very exhausting and it did feel rewarding, but I think it had the potential to feel more rewarding for not just me, but the artists at Shoot The Lobster. You know, you're putting all of this work into a show, really for any model of gallery and then you build a show and then it comes down after four to six weeks. 

[00:10:01] Ben: Oh my god that's so fast 

[00:10:02] Ebony: It's so fast, man. It's so fast. plus while it's coming down and you probably don't even get to be there cause you're at an art or you're at the next artist studio preparing for the install, you know, you miss half the show because of the nature of what you need to do in the art I just, I always wanted time. I I've always wanted to work like a curator who's in a museum, but not work in a I I've removed the bureaucracy that I curating a show in a and still have the joy of telling an their sh their work has sold. I mean, I really believe in the commercial side of it. I think it's super empowering for artists to sell in place work it's not a nonprofit and certain artists practices often get pushed to the side well, well, you know, you get an artist fee to do this performance, thank this site specific installation, here's your fee. And let us know where to ship the work back to that's not to discredit museums. You know, I, I often get criticized for trying to suggest a new model. I'm, I'm not suggesting this is a paradigm shift model, but I am interested in the idea that different models can exist. You know, the artist I'm about to have a show with next, just did a great residency with MoMA for performance, and it was wonderful and sold out, and I'm going to do a show that's different here. and we'll sell out in a different way. I speak so openly about money because I I'm just tired of people feeling like we can't talk about prices and selling and what that means for the artists. I'm interested in mostly because of what it means for the artist and how special it is to tell this show you worked on for a year plus has done really well. And two museums have acquired and 10 great collectors have bought, and I don't have anything to ship back to your studio, but I do have a great payment to send to your bank account. 

[00:11:52] Ben: So kind of going back a bit, I'm curious to just hear a bit about the origins of 52 Walker. How did it come about? 

[00:11:59] Ebony: I was approached to be a director with David Zwirner, this happened early in 2020, the beginning of the year. And it was a slow conversation as these conversations usually are. there was only one meeting and set up to have another, and then the pandemic hit quarantine hit and a lot happened for a lot of people, including myself in that time. And I felt like I had a stake in something very different when I came out of it. Going through it my stakes shifted in that. I knew that I had to do something that felt rewarding or just not do anything in the art world at all anymore. And so when I met back with David Zwirner in late summer, which just happened to be David who was in town because everybody was still working remotely. I just sort of went for it. I just, you know, what did I have to lose? He said no or he didn't like it and then I would just maybe buy a small home in the Tundra and teach remotely and write a book. I don't know, but it didn't seem like it, it felt like a, no wasn't going to break me. I, I had to kind of go for it. And in all honesty, I've always loved the David Zwirner program. I was already interested in working here. just, like I said, everything changed that summer, that spring summer of 2020. So I opened up the gauntlet when I was sitting in front of him and we met for hours, we just kept talking and it was really great. I came back and we kept talking and then I've talked to more people here and he wanted me to share with partners and directors and other people he works with and it just kind of turned into a great opportunity for everyone. 

The vision was, I think pretty true to what it's becoming. I said always very early originally I said three or four shows a year. It's turned into four, but I was even open to something less. I said three or four shows a year, a gallery that does not represent artists or do art fairs, but is for sale. And every show gets a book. That's really how it started with those points. I wanted to. Be able to control who worked with me and make sure that opportunities were afforded for people with this space being a new model to try and find ways to create new roles. It is also a hybrid in terms of the roles that we have here at the gallery. And it seems to be shifting quickly. You know, we have a library now and I have somebody who needs to manage it. And I do a lot of research and writing a lot of it's required for the exhibitions and the proposals and the acquisitions. And I have like basically a full-time researcher, who's sort of my right hand assistant and that's not usually the norm at every gallery. And nor is it maybe the norm at every museum, but I I'm excited to see what other roles come from this space. 

[00:14:40] Ben: If you were to articulate it, what role do you play in the life of your artists?

[00:14:45] Ebony: Formally speaking, I think I play the role of a curator and I hope for most, if not all, I provide a new platform. want to be the one who's presenting a new opportunity that is very unique to this space. And I really get excited about what they, you know, sort of what we cook up, it feels very collaborative and cooperative the nature of the space and all of those things that I've mentioned that we don't represent artists, and there's four shows a year and you get a book like they all simultaneously are informing how the artist is thinking through what could be presented in this space. And I feel super honored to be in that position with them because it's more than just a curator really, I'm also their dealer here I'm selling the work. You know, I am the director, but also, you know, the director of this project with them trying to steer things in a good direction for them and it's a unique position because I am advocating for artists and their practices without having a relationship with them after our show. But I feel like that provides more freedom for me personally, I don't have to overthink very much, you know, if it feels good, we go with it. I don't have to think about what lies ahead for us as a team. This is the only game we're playing and we can just play it however we want, which feels really great. 

Artists are doing exactly what they would do and have been doing, but visibility on what those things are and their practice is different here. I think people are expecting something to be grand or pushing some kind of envelope, but actually I've just invited artists whose practices I've always been fond of. And I, and have worked with all, except for one in the first year of programming and at least one time, you know, a few, a couple of them I've curated more than once in shows and I think perhaps they haven't been afforded this much space to put on a show or just do a solo exhibition in New York. But the work rings true to their practices as I've known it. That's what's exciting to me as a curator here is to show practices that I know and have known for a while and I'm excited to share. 

[00:16:53] Ben: Looking at the work that you're doing at 52 Walker it does seem highly specific in the sense that, at least so far, and also just looking ahead to the artists that you're working with in the past work they've done. A lot of it is operating in this like really beautiful hybrid space where it's like movement dance, but also sculpture and also media, and it's like all, all of the things, but very much feels grounded in the body and performance. And I'm curious like where your attraction to that comes from.

[00:17:25] Ebony: I'm not sure. but I think there's something about my intro into the art world specifically in New York, coming from a place of not having like a traditional art history background in school or familiarly like nobody in my family studies or was interested in art. Painting was very intimidating. When people spoke of art history or the canon auctions museum shows a lot of that was around paintings and painters and I probably felt a bit. Like a fish out of water. I remember sitting at the front desk of Foxy Production and people would drop the names of painters and galleries that represent those painters and what a painting results got at auction. It just felt like a different language to me, but also felt like a language that was very well studied. And there were clear markers of how to enter that conversation or not. It didn't feel like there was much room for nuance. Again. This was my experience, you know, I was new and I felt like there were very clear sides to each argument. The painting canon seems like one that was overly referenced and always had some sort of footnote in an argument, you know, in a review or a press release. There were always some, some reference to another painter or another show that looked like this, or a surface or, you know, they just was a history that was deep. And I didn't know if I was prepared to mine it. I think I just fell into a world that I felt really comfortable with, not that I don't love painting people kind of make jokes all the time, including all of my bosses. At some point have said some kind of joke, like, "you don't really like painting, do you?" I love painting. I have grown to love it even more. I mean, I have ideas about painting shows all the time, but I think I was drawn to what I felt comfortable with in the beginning. And I felt at ease talking to somebody who considered themselves a sound or installation artist. This is an interesting question Ben because I don't really know why I curate the way I do, but I'd imagine I felt less intimidated by somebody who had a recording studio to make their work or who wanted to create an entire installation that potentially wasn't even for sale, because it was more about the experience. I was really intrigued by those practices very early also video and film. And, you know, I wanted to be a DP when I was younger. I had a collection of cameras and I took photography classes at the same time as I was studying anthropology and music at a school that was known more for photography. And I learned how to develop my own film and I loved being in the dark room, but then I embraced , uh, you know, DSLRs when the time came and I took editing classes, video editing. So I, yeah, I have a history in that world. I think that's just what I was interested in from a young age and then felt more comfortable talking about those things before painting anyway. And how exciting is it for me to see, you know, we're just closing Nikita's show and it's a room full of six bleachers that have been crushed with a four channel sound installation and programmed can lights. I mean, so cool. And I, and I get it conceptually, I get it too. I know exactly what the artist is talking about by removing the body from the performance. And I think it just became a language that I was more comfortable with. 

[00:20:42] Ben: I was hoping, for folks that haven't gotten a chance to see, your first two shows, um, right. Two shows, could you maybe just give us a little virtual walking tour of what those shows were.

[00:20:53] Ebony: Sure, Kandis was a exploration of dance notation and the history of choreographing bodies and, noting movement and what that's meant in different dance schools and different histories and points of reference. And it rang true to a lot of Kandis' practice. I have previously curated Kandis' collages, sculptures and video on three different occasions. And I was really excited and it was my desire early in, in talking with Kandis about this show to include all three in this exhibition, because I felt that no matter what, the medium, she is a true researcher, archivist and collage artists and collage for the video as well, collage for the sculptures collage for the 2d works. I mean, there was something about collaging in my mind. I think about it as the whole show was, you know, collaging the present onto the past and she does that in so many ways. Double exposure, triple exposure, using archival images with actual contemporary dancers in her studio that she's shooting herself. You know, we've all worked for over a year on these shows. So Kandis it felt like a very exciting visual representation for me as why I chose her as the inaugural show, she was super dedicated, made a huge new body of work based on research that she'd been doing before I even approached her for this show and was almost like a residency because she came here to make most of the work as well. She was here for six months and there was no question in my mind that Kandis had to be the first show. Actually, as soon as I knew this was potentially going to be a space, I called Kandis and didn't tell her what was cooking, but just selfishly made her promise not to do any shows in New York until she spoke to me because I really wanted to talk to her about something, but didn't share anything at the time, but made her promise to wait for me. But I knew she had to be the first one and I feel so honored that she was. And Nikita again, I've curated Nikita twice before this show and have come to know her very well over six years. And I knew given the space that I had to work with her in the past, that if she had the space and time would do something phenomenal and the show you know, it took a bit of a turn than what we'd discussed a little over a year ago, but. She's always been interested in this idea of the ruin and what constitutes something noted in our history as being precious. And, you know, the ruins of usually marks some sort of grand you know, human accomplishment or achievement. It's usually meant mark how smart humans are. That's what becomes a ruin and largely in Nikita's practice whether it's a sculpture, a 2d work, or a video, a sound piece, she works in all of those mediums, she's always interested in what happens when you remove the body. So what is a ruin when there's no one there? What is a performance without being activated by a body? What is a Bleacher if you don't sit on it. We had this installation that was just over two hours long of six bleachers, four of which were crushed and flipped on their side and you weren't able to sit on them and a special four channel sound composition, a new score mixed with audio recordings of Nikita and voice actors, and was essentially a performance that was non-narrative with 12 vignettes that changed spliced with intermissions of about four to six minutes long. And I mean, it just, it's incredible how it changed the space at any given moment. You could walk in and be in a completely different part of the performance, not knowing what came before or after, and it didn't matter. As a space to put on shows like that. It's interesting to see, to watch people come in every day and maybe not be sure how to interact. Sometimes people come in and miss the fact that there's sound and light. They come in during an intermission and maybe leave before it's over thinking. That's the show. But conceptually for me too, as a curator, that's what makes it really interesting and to give Nikita the space to do that has been really rewarding. It's so crazy thinking about it. It's like I miss these shows already. We document everything here a lot. We have disposable cameras at the front desk that I make sure all of the staff just take random photos of things and people. 

[00:25:03] Ben: So you've been showing time-based media and working with time-based media for pretty much almost your entire gallery career, I think is pretty fair to say. You know, I guess for you, what are some of the primary challenges showing and selling this kind of work in the gallery world?

[00:25:21] Ebony: Well, one is space I mean? you know, not everyone can take six bleachers into their private collection or a four channel sound or, you know, collaged plants that are 10 feet tall or things with lights. I think challenge number one is space for private collection. Challenge number two is what I think is now something that you've helped me reflect on in these questions, maybe a lack of familiarity with a particular medium or kind of practice. If it doesn't easily fit within a part of the art canon, it might be hard to understand why, you know, it's important to collect video and it's important to install speakers specifically for this four channel sound installation. But the collectors do exist and this space is proof of it. And I think that's been really rewarding as well as to have conversations with people who are excited to be able to enter into the gallery world, and collect things that they're familiar with and they want to own, and they want to gift to museums and they will also want to see shine. And I mean, It's opened up a lot of conversations for me with the commercial side of it. And, and who's normally collecting, there's a plethora of people excited to collect works from new media. It's not as easy as some other mediums, but it's out there. I mean, I think this space is proof of it for me now. These are collectors who maybe I didn't appreciate the first time they bought an installation from me, which a couple of them have, you know, at previous galleries, how dedicated they were to new media practices or maybe , challenging practices that include installation or are demanding of the install for them. I have this wonderful, couple of collectors who are a married couple Larry Eisenstein and Robbins Zimmerman who are very active in the art world in a way that I, I don't use that word active lately I mean really actively engaged with artists and non-profits and galleries and are on museum boards as well and they go to all the talks and they see all of the things and are really invested in the future of artists and the collectors that I really appreciate, and there are many of these not just Robbin and Larry, what's up guys, but the true collector, you know, collectors are meant to collect artists. They're meant to collect an artist practice. And it doesn't mean you buy one thing speculatively, because it's having a moment. It means you see something in this artist and their practice, and can't wait to support the next show or the next series or the next exploration that they do in the studio. Those guys acquired an installation from me and one of the stipulations to install it was that it needed 10 feet of white wall space between the left and the right side. And they did that in their home. That's so exciting for me and even more for the artist who think that this work becomes something non acquirable or hopefully a museum will, I mean to put things back in the hands of collectors and to really, you know, patrons and people who are really invested in not just me, but the things I'm interested in there are definitely a few diehards, I should say, diehard collectors, for sure. 

The reality is a lot of things that I have shown will be acquired by an institution because of this inability to have the space for it, or be acquired and maybe not shown as often as I would like to see in someone's home. Actually, I just thought of one the first show I curated at Martos, called invisible man. There was a work by Pope L which he'd installed, which was a water fountain turned upside down from the ceiling and it dripped into the floor into a hole in the floor. And there was another work that was a coffin that he'd created as it was reminiscent of a coffin that looked, it was almost out of like wooden crates in the shape of an L the American flag was inside, and there was an audio recording coming from it and it needed to be plugged in and the plug needed to go up to the ceiling. Like it was a very specific install part of, it was sitting, resting on these three particular books it was a beautiful sculpture and collectors in Belgium, have it up in their home, this coffin piece. It's possible the fountain is also up, but at the time, this was a while ago now, but at the time that the coffin was in their home, which was pretty amazing to see. It is large. I mean, this is like six by five feet. This L shaped wooden crate coffin. 

This was before my fallout with Brussels. I don't really look forward to going to Brussels anymore personally or professionally. It's a place in the world and the art world for me that. Made me too aware of being a single Black body in this space the fact that it's palpable and visceral, and it just, it just was too many years going to Brussels when I decided I don't need to feel this way. And I just decided not to go back. So my last art fair, there was 2018 or my last time there, and it'll likely be my, last for professional, endeavors. Maybe I go there because a friend has a wedding. You know, I'm not brushing the entire country off, and maybe there's an artist there that I want to work with, again, I'm not trying to close it off, but I, I don't want to spend very much time there as an art director and curator, and I don't have to. I just I don't have great memories working there. But again, I know people from there and who lived there and I know collectors and artists and there's some people that I really love and respect who work there but I just don't have to be there if I don't want to. So that's where I'll leave it. Yeah. 

[00:31:00] Ben: When you're placing these really complex, difficult to collect pieces, with collections, be it a museum or a private collection I'm curious if, and how, and when conservation enters this process in the conversation?

[00:31:18] Ebony: I have to say, I haven't encountered much of that specificity for acquisition outside of a museum, but there is always a conversation there about conservation with new media works, especially, and I got a very early lesson with Foxy Production who taught me a lot about planned obsolescence. You know, if something was shot on a VHS tape, what the language needs to be like in the certificate that they receive, or the package or the handoff about file transferring and converting what conversions are allowed and even language for when that media becomes obsolete, what steps need to be taken to address it? You know, like I, I did get quite an early lesson in that from Foxy. And I, I think about it often, I think about one of my favorite artists Kayode Ojo at Martos gallery. I call him a conceptual sculptor because he doesn't have a studio and everything is purchased on eBay and then assembled, but then where does it become the artists work? If everyone could just you know, make that stack of books with the books that he ordered too. I mean, where's the artist's hand and I would sell those works with an archival box just like an extended COA that you had to have all of these components to call it the work and instructions on if you needed to replace something this was how. Again, I like a big paper trail. I like a big box for no reason whether it's a USB key or you know, a strip of 35 millimeter film or I also kind of enjoy the conversations of planning for what happens if, and to give people the tools for installing and, you know, for the Nora Turato show coming up, you know, she works in performance video enamels that hang on the wall, but also custom murals that are hand painted, but they are designed in such a way that you can scale them to any size, but you print out your own stencils and that's exciting. I mean, she's working with me on this gigantic manual for every situation, outdoor paint, indoor paint, swatch colors instructions on how to scale the file for the stencil, depending on what size, you know, like it's an interesting model and you get this really beautiful box that she designed with her studio and everything's inside. So by taking that box, you own that mural. and it's kind of fun to think about every scenario or various scenarios that one could encounter with a work like that or anything. That's not just coming out of a box to put on a wall. 

[00:33:47] Ben: I just love that. That an artist can not just have the time to like, okay, yeah, we got the show up and it's, it's good, but kind of go deep into their head with this stuff and in their practice and really have that luxury of time. That's just so cool that you're making that kind of space for artists. I love that. 

[00:34:04] Ebony: Oh, thank you. I'm having a lot of fun too. I'm not trying to pat David's Zwirner on the back so to speak, but I think it's important for people to know that I had agency in choosing who I wanted to do this with, but it's largely because of the history of many other galleries, you know, exhibition histories and artists. I mean, Gordon Matta. Clark is one of my favorite artists of all time. You know, Stan Douglas, Barbara Kruger. These are artists who also pushed the envelope, who I would have enjoyed working within a traditional capacity. I'm just saying this and that. Some galleries, not just David Zwirner, but including David Zwirner do push the envelope. But because of the model we are used to, which includes more shows per year more artists who are expecting shows. So you have to do them quicker, plus art fairs, you might only have the Chance to do those envelope pushing shows once or twice in a year or two period, because you need to get the other shows up and do the art fairs. And I think a lot of galleries and dealers would appreciate a space to push a bit more. But in my experience that model, you know, you need to tow the tradition line a little bit just to keep it flowing, like just to, I don't want to say stay in business because large galleries don't really have the same issues, but I'm thinking of myself working at Martos. For example, I would not be able to have only four shows a year and most galleries. I think wouldn't four shows a year that present work that requires power and HDMI and multi-channel speakers. and to also stay in business. I mean, again, this is why it's important for me to keep stressing, it's a commercial gallery and I had to balance a show that had an installation with 10 feet between it, with a show that felt like people would be less apprehensive about acquiring. Maybe that's painting, maybe that sculpture that's on the floor, maybe that's photography, but. I think it's a, it's a strategy.

[00:36:07] Ben: What is the biggest challenge that you've had so far in working with time-based media as a gallerist? 

[00:36:15] Ebony: When shit goes wrong. How much can you try to prep for a four channel video with particular specs and you know, they want a Mac mini and there's no sound, or there is sound, and you're trying to map it all out and you get to the space something has to be a speed bump It's inevitable. I think like the speed bumps are built into the time-based new media, conceptually that has to just be part of the practice and the artists I find who work with new media and time-based works you know, over time have learned to factor that in to the installation and the creation of the work, because. Even if that museum or gallery assures them that we're good. They know we're not good. They know that there needs to be a contingency plan you know, maybe the gallery was wired with HDMI CAT6 everywhere, but two of them don't work and maybe I don't want to jinx myself Ben here because we were actually pretty smooth with Nikita, surprisingly, and even surprising to Nikita, herself. I give myself more time to install for that reason. I don't do the usual week flip. We have at least two this time we have almost three. So I think it's about knowing it's not straightforward. And even if you think it's straightforward, it's so funny how we try and plan for every detail, but you're always making a run to a store to get a different cord. You have to get a new cord. One of the projectors is burnt out. One of the CRT monitors for Kandis' show, like the light just wasn't the same because they're old monitors and you can never be sure what you're going to get when you turn it on. 

[00:37:54] Ben: A trend that I'm kind of picking up on with everything that you do is this almost archival impulse, you know, in the fact that you're publishing a book for every show in the fact that you have started a circulating library, which is the coolest thing for a gallery to do. You're handing out disposable cameras to your gallery attendents so yeah, I guess there's a what's going on there.

[00:38:20] Ebony: What is going on there? As much as I love new media and time-based works. I equally love this idea of an archive and archiving, you know, I feel like I'm creating an archive. I'm already thinking 10 years ahead for what our book series looks like on the shelf and what that history represents and almost making my mark or wanting people to have something to return to that has some physicality. You know, there's physicality to the gallery and the space and the shows and I think having a laminated floor plan, which we have as opposed to a QR code, there's something. In that, for me, that rings true to the program. You know, like, come in, feel the floor plan, be in the space, really take your time because this is time-based work, you know, really, really be present because it's not going to be so easy to potentially understand. At first glance pick up the press release. We have a space for you to sit down and read it if you want. And maybe this is all a big, you know, 360 to a young Ebony who felt uncomfortable talking about a painting show because there was an assumption that I could sweep through a gallery and have hit all of the marks, or know the points I should hit when talking about a painting or , it's historical references. Cause maybe these shows aren't so easy to place and I want you to take your time to do that. And I want to provide some tools, if I can to help you do that. And the library though, it is physical and books that are covered in Mylar, that you can take out the circulating ones for four weeks at a time. It also is conceptually an archive online of an annotated bibliography. You know, each exhibition has the library listed next to it. So if you want to get into what the artist and I were thinking about a little more of the artist practice, I want to provide that and maybe you come back to it in a year's time after you hear about Kandis or Nikita and you know, it's just about more time. I want to spend more time and I want to give work and artists more time. It feels like it's all just been floating above me for years. And even once this announcement was made that the space was going to exist and I was with David Zwirner. I mean, it was almost a year to the week from the announcement going out to the space opening. It was a long year, you know, it was hard to get people to see or to believe that I'd thought things through as far ahead as I had. And to trust that I'm thinking about engagement, but I'm also thinking about sales. And I'm thinking about what the narrative of the program of artists who follow each other, you know, that's strategic, I want to have the program shine and have this kind of narrative as we go along through the years of shows at one show after the other kind of speaking to the last and the next. And it just felt like nobody was going to get it for so long until I was like, I'm waiting to open, waiting to open waiting to do this thing. And now it's here. And it feels really rewarding because it felt like it was never going to come and I now it's just going to continue. 

[00:41:23] Ben: Good job.

[00:41:27] Ebony: And also it's like taking this gallery with David Zwirner and having Selldorf architects design it, but all of us really wanting to keep the bare bones of this landmark building the floors are from the 19th century. There's creeks and kinks. The tin ceiling was patchy and rusted and we tried to replace them with antique tin to match and expose the old steel, like really keeping a lot of the old bones as much as possible. That was really the only direction I gave. And I just let the experts do their thing and hiding a bunch of HDMI, CAT6, in the collumns and audio cables in the walls and making sure it all goes down to a media tower. Even the design and the art direction I gave for the branding of the space, working with my amazing art directors. I was thinking of old Guggenheim, you know, like old, old Whitney uptown, like brutalist, I don't know, like I'm thinking of the stacks in a library. And that's just kind of my jam. And then I get to mix it with my new jam of time-based art and get to be in here with Nikita while she's working with a lighting programmer.

 Coming up next, we have Nora Turato who is, an amazing performance 2D video mural artist. Who's from Croatia based in Amsterdam, and she just had her first performance appearance in New York at MoMA. They did this amazing program of three performances a day for three days a week for three weeks. And I am Nora's first New York solo exhibition ever. So it's a really great moment to have the performances having just happened and I'm showing a different body of work. And I'm really excited for what we've cooked up. It's going to be great.

[00:43:12] Ben: I can't wait to see it. I would be curious if you have any parting words of advice for anyone who is interested in pursuing a career in the gallery world.

[00:43:22] Ebony: Know that it is indeed possible and don't limit yourself to NYFA or whatever other sort of classifieds that you encounter or use for your search, really get on the ground, go to the galleries you love, get to meet the people you respect. I got my internship, all of my internship letters except for the Studio Museum, which had an internship posted where to complete cold calls. And they were really spaces that I saw myself excited to be in and I think that came through in my letters. I just sort of reached out and told them why I really respected them and their programs and why I wanted to be there. And I'm not suggesting you need to do that for anyone listening, but just don't limit yourself to what is right in front of you. You can totally make your own entry into the gallery world, wherever you feel like you can fit in. 

[00:44:13] Ben: Well, Ebony, thank you so much for taking the time to chat today. I really appreciate it. 

[00:44:18] Ebony: Thank you for asking me. I feel honored to be on this podcast, so thank you. 

[00:44:22] Ben: And thank you, dear listener for joining us for this week's show. If you liked what you heard, I hope you'll help me continue building this little community of the 600 or so people that tune in here each week, by sharing the episode with a friend, you can find the show notes and full transcript at artandobsolescence.com. And as always, you can find clips and highlights on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence have a great week my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin and this has been Art and Obsolescence.