Episode 033: Emma Dickson
Show Notes
This week on the show we’re visiting with conservation technician, software developer, hardware hacker, and artist Emma Dickson, who you may recall as the guest host of Episode 010 with Shu Lea Cheang. Ever since their first foray into the field working to analyze and restore Shu-Lea’s legendary net art piece Brandon at the Guggenheim as part of their Conservation of Computer Based Art initiative, Emma has gone on to do great work with an impressive CV as a professional software developer, and conservation technician. Tune in to hear Emma’s story!
Footnote
For the two Guggenheim projects mentioned in the episode, Emma wanted to note the project teams. For Brandon: Joanna Phillips, Deena Engel, Jonathan Farbowitz and Jillian Zhong; and For Net.flag: Agathe Jarczyk, Deena Engel and Jonathan Farbowitz.
Links from the conversation with Emma
> https://emmadickson.info/
> https://news.artnet.com/art-world/guggenheim-brandon-digital-art-962129
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Transcript
[00:00:00] Ben: From Small Data Industries, this is Art and Obsolescence, I'm your host, Ben Fino-Radin, and on this show, I chat with people that are shaping the past present and future of art and technology. This week, we have a real treat as we'll be visiting with someone who has brought their skills in software engineering to the art conservation world.
[00:00:18] Emma: My name is Emma Dickson. I'm a conservation technician, a software developer, and I do art stuff.
[00:00:25] Ben: Now you may recognize Emma's voice as they were our guest host for episode 10, which featured artist Shu Lea Cheang. I have followed and been a fan of Emma's work in conservation ever since their first foray into the field, working to analyze and restore Shu Lea's piece, Brandon at the Guggenheim as part of their Conservation of Computer Based Art initiative. As we'll hear Emma has gone on to do great work since then, and as someone who has both an impressive CV as a professional software developer, and as a freelancer in conservation, I just had to get them on the show to get the full story.
Before we dive in a big shout out this week to our two new supporters over on Patreon: Joseph and Michael, thank you both so much for supporting the show you are at the best. As a reminder, we pay artists that come on the show, a pretty generous speaking fee to thank them for their time. And I'm only able to do this thanks to the generous support of listeners. So if you've been enjoying the show, I hope you'll consider joining us over on patreon.com/artobsolescence where you'll get access to all kinds of cool perks, including exclusive content on a regular basis, like interview clips, as well as seeing behind the scenes in how the show is actually made. If one time tax deductible donations are still more your speed you can always support the show through our fiscal sponsor, the New York Foundation for the Arts over artandobsolescence.com/donate. And if you are not in a place to support the show right now. Well, thank you for tuning in, it's great to have you here no matter what. Now without further delay, let's dive in to this week's chat with Emma Dickson.
[00:01:55] Emma: I went to a lot of museums growing up. Pittsburgh has a lot of really great museums and I was I think about as creative as other kids, you know, I drew a lot, I sort of tried a bunch of different types of art and I took stuff apart a lot, but I wasn't particularly good at any of it really. I could never really put this stuff back together, which was really frustrating. So I just had these boxes of sort of sorted electrical components that like, I didn't do anything with. My favorite artist was Warhol I think just cause the Warhol museum; it's a great museum and it's one of the best in Pittsburgh. And so I went there a lot. They were really obsessed with him in terms of like, you know, repping a local boy in my public school. So I sort of learned a lot about him. I was interested in art, but I was not connecting that to my love of taking things apart and sorting them.
My family is really practical. My mom is an electrical engineer. She does embedded hardware systems, embedded systems, hardware, for nuclear submarines. And all of her siblings are engineers or, I think one's a lawyer. Their parents were eastern European immigrants, which I think is relevant because they're yeah, they're just very like plan oriented, you know, what's your plan? How are you going to make this work? How are you gonna support yourself? I was too scared to apply directly to art school. I didn't see a way that I would be good enough at it to justify it. So I was like, well, I'll go to NYU. Cause it's like an arty school. You know, and like I guess anthropology and sociology were like the most creative things I could think of at the time that I felt safe doing. So I went with this idea that I would do anthropology and sociology as a double major. I don't know what I thought I would do, like Margaret Mead stuff, but in America, I don't really know what my idea was. It was pretty vague. But at the time I was very interested in it. And then my first semester winter break, I sort of like panicked and I was like, oh God, you know, everybody keeps asking me what I'm going to do with this. And I just do not have a good answer. I have no answer. And my best friend is extremely practical and started sending me to like bureau of labor stats about like anthropology majors which was a real bummer. I think I picked computer science because I was like what are the other sciences? I didn't know what jobs where I was like, well, there's physics, I'm terrible at that. There's math. I'm terrible at that. And I hate math. There's, chemistry, I hate chemistry and then there's computer science, so, okay. You know, that's a science, I'll do that. Honestly I didn't think that I was going to be a software developer. I kept my sociology double major and I think my plan until like I started doing the stuff with the Guggenheim was to basically just be like a stats sociologists to do like data science, but for sociology basically.
I just didn't know that you could do art with computers. I didn't really like understand that as a possibility. When I switched my major I emailed the comp side department basically, and I was like, Hey, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm doing computers now, I guess. Could you like tell me what jobs there are? I knew you could do engineering and I didn't really know what you could do with computer science. It seemed vaguer and a bit more open-ended and so I emailed them and I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, what are jobs that people do with this? What classes should I be taking? What should I be doing? And I went and met with someone. I do not remember who at this point. She asked me a bunch of questions about math basically. And I was like, no, I hate math. And she was like, well, that's kind of a bad field to be in then. Um, seems like a bad idea. And I was like, yeah, no, but I made up my mind, how do I avoid the math bit? And she was like, I don't have anything for you. You should go talk to professor Engel. Because Deena Engel, worked at NYU at the time and she was doing this digital humanities art stuff. And she was sort of, the point person in the department and would talk to students. So I went and I talked to her. I did my schpeel again of like, I don't know what jobs are like what, what should I be doing? What is available to students in the comp sci department? Like what is the normal comp sci sort of path? And she was super nice. And she gave me some I think probably a very good generic advice about like what classes I should take. What, like a general comp path was. Then we talked a little bit more about some of the art stuff she was doing. And she was like, Oh, I, you know, she was sort of talking about the program that she had, where she would have students link up with museums in the city and analyze the source code. And I was like, wow, that seems really super cool. Can I do that? And she was like, well, not right now. No, because you've taken like no classes. Uh, no, but here's when I generally bring people on and come back and see me.
It was independent study so you took the sort of independent study class with professor Engel and me and another student Jillian Zhong got assigned Brandon basically, which was the piece that the Guggenheim was looking at at the time. Brandon is a famous historic piece of net art made from 1998, parts of it in 1997 to 1999. And the extremely basic quickest overview that I can possibly give is that it is mostly about Brandon Teena a trans man who was murdered, a hate crime in the nineties, I think 96, somewhere around there. It's about taking Brandon on a road trip. So the main interface is the road and there's sort of five main interfaces that explore other trans people. The main themes of the piece are the medicalization and criminalization of transness, queerness and sort of what the particular eye towards American history. There's a lot of like historical American figures that they pull out in the piece.
The initial phase was just basically, here's this USB, what does this code do? Can you tell me what this code does? And then what would you need to do to make it run? But I think even the, what would you need to do to make it run was much later at first it was just, what's on here. You know, what languages is it in? How do you think the files would interact with each other?
[00:08:02] Ben: What was that like to be handed a USB key with something from the Guggenheim on it?
[00:08:08] Emma: Oh, I mean, it was the best. It was incredible. It was like the best thing that had ever happened to me. I imprinted on Brandon, like a baby duck. I was obsessed with it instantly. I would just spend hours there was so much code. Another really important thing was that it wasn't just code. There were photographs. There were court transcripts from these like seven real cases. There was I think almost an entire copy of my tiny life by Julian Dibbell there was just like, so much source material and it was super easy to just absolutely get lost in like trying to figure out how it all connected. And I wasn't very good at computer science at the time I had just started taking classes, so I wasn't very good at coding. I think it shaped a lot of how I thought about code. I think I was exposed to it, like so early on in me learning how to code that, it shaped a lot of my understanding of it. I think I was always going to think of code as more narrative as opposed to like mathy, right? It just sort of ruined me because I was like, oh man, like you can make, mind blowing art with code? That was all I wanted to be involved with after that really. Like using code to make anything else is like boring and dumb. And like, why would you even do that?
I was working on Brandon basically in some way, like 75% of the time that I was in college. Because I got the initial code analysis sophomore year. And so we did a semester just reading the code and looking at it through, and then there was another semester, junior year where they were like, okay, keep looking at the code and Jillian and I were basically trying to figure out what it would take to restore it at that point. Most of it was in Java applets which, at the time you actually could still in some browsers, look at Java applets when we started in like 2014, but it was in the process of like rapidly being deprecated. It was dying sort of as we were looking at it and they'd had it offline for a really long time. It hadn't been viewable for a while. I'm not sure how many years by the time Jillian and I started looking at it. There was also some outdated PHP. There were like explicit references to like Netscape. Like there was sort of like workarounds for like old browsers that didn't exist. There was like an AltaVista search stuff like that. So it was just, it was just old. But the main thing was that the Java applets were dying as we were looking at it. That took another semester. The timing was just perfect for me personally, because it was basically like, okay. You know, you spent. A couple of semesters looking at this code, thinking about what it might take to make it functional. Again, we've got this new fellow we're interested in, actually doing it. And so they hired me to work on, the actual code which was like a great, it was a come true.
[00:11:04] Ben: So it seems like your involvement in conservation projects at the Guggenheim, caused you to sort of catch the bug so to speak. And it seems like around that time, based on my understanding you started making your own art, is that accurate or were you kind of always making art throughout this time you were in school?
[00:11:26] Emma: It wasn't Like very good art, but yeah I had kept up the thing of taking stuff apart. That was just like my hobby for a while. I would take apart electronics and clean them and put them back together. I found it like deeply soothing. I still have my like comfort, hard drive. Hard drives can just be really pretty if you get like the blue ones for sort of smaller laptops. So I had this one that was like this beautiful surillian. And yeah, I would just take it apart and clean it and put it back together and take it apart. I think the thing that I started doing that was more art, like was I found a rotary phone and it wasn't working. So I fixed it in the sense that like, you could plug it into your phone line, you could call it, you could pick up, you could hear the other person. And then I sort of started like modding the inside. I don't know if you would call the early stuff art so much as I was just like hardware hacking things that I found. I started working on this one net art piece in college that I was sort of working on this was around the time where I was working on Brandon and I like did not know Java script. They really should not have gotten me to do that job. I'm glad that they did, but like, I didn't know what I was doing when I started. So I was taking this JavaScript class in an attempt to like learn while I was trying to write this thing in Java script. And one of the assignments was to make a website that had a login that was it. One of my millions of hobbies was to go on Craigslist and read the missed connections post s because they were insane and just like really interesting to read. So I made my database be scraped, missed connections posts. So I made this like bot that would scrape like 10 posts at a time or something because I kept getting my IP banned, which is deeply embarrassing to have Craigslist ban your IP. Like I checked the robot text. You're allowed to scrape Craigslist posts as long as you're not like trying to resell or like, pull a scam, you're allowed to do it. But if you send a hundred requests really quickly Craigslist will ban your IP. But yeah, so the database was just scraped posts and then I sort of just kept working on it and like developing the Corpus of posts. So the piece now is you go to the website and you sort of see these post titles blink in and out of existence and the words are all scrambled. And if you manage to click on one of the links, you'll sort of see on your screen as if somebody is typing it a randomly generated post. The post is basically like a random amount of sentences from like, two to seven and they're full sentences cut from all of these different individual posts. So you'll get like four posts combined to be one. And I just really liked how you could do that. And it was still like a coherent missed connections post. And it's funny because like the gender will change. Like, It'll start off being like, I'm looking for a hot woman. He came up to me at the gas station and yeah, it's this sort of dreamlike thing that I really like.
I really wanted to do more conservation stuff, but I didn't see a way to do that. I'd kind of screwed myself because if I had been smarter and if I had been more prescient about how much I would like conservation stuff, I would have taken the pre-recs to go to conservation school, when I was in undergrad. I didn't take any art history courses. I did one chemistry course and NYU at the time hadn't opened up their time-based media conservation program, but they were about to, and so to get to there, I like met with somebody at the school and I was like, you know, what, what I need to do I would need to take up to organic chem two and three or four art history courses, basically. I was lucky enough that the Brandon work counted as the pre-program internship. So I wouldn't have to worry about that, but I would have to take all these other classes. And you know, while I was doing all of this, I'd had an internship at IBM, I'd done their sort of special, fancy boy internship. I liked the lab that I'd worked at. I'd made friends there and it was in North Carolina and so I was sort of faced with, I was about to graduate. You know, I just finished this like incredible project that I loved. I'd like to do more stuff, but I can't just immediately go to conservation school. That's literally not a thing I can do. So my plan was to go and work at IBM for a couple of years while I got my pre-recs up and then apply to conservation school. I also like briefly entertained going to the school in Bern. I went so far as to like visit the campus in Bern. I was really serious about going back to school cause I was just like, well, this is like the only thing that I'm like interested in really, like this is just, the only thing I really want to be doing, like coding is fine, but it's not interesting like in and of itself, you know, it's not particularly interesting. So like I was really motivated to get back. I felt like I was sort of being kicked out you know, just through circumstances there's not an immediate next branch, so I'm going to have to get back to it somehow. And then I got to North Carolina and the community colleges didn't have art history classes that qualified. So I started taking a chemistry course while I was working. And I thought about doing MIAP, but MIAP is really expensive. And a lot of it just came down to, I was like I don't know what to do at this point. I just really couldn't really see a way to make it work. It seemed really expensive and time-consuming, and I didn't really want to live in New York again. So I didn't go back to grad school. I've tried to make strategic choices about what I'm working on and staying involved in the field and I think a lot of it has paid off for me really. I think I'm only able to do all of this stuff because of Brandon and because of how nurturing and like supportive professor Engel was and like being at the right place at the right time. But it sucked personally to go from that project to then just being like, oh man, now I, you know, I'm working this sort of extremely normal software job that I like find very uninteresting. And I think that was good motivation because I was just like okay. I got to get back in somehow, what am I going to do? Like, okay, fine. If this is, the thing that I'm interested in, I will just take absolutely every opportunity. I say take every opportunity most of what that is, it's just me cold, pitching myself to people and being like, would you like help with this? I'm here, I'm here. Until somebody takes me up on it and that's how I've stayed involved. I think.
[00:17:40] Ben: And I gather that as your professional career as a software developer has evolved, you've kind of also made projects for yourself along the way. For instance, you did a residency at Signal Culture, which I'm super curious to hear about. Could you tell us a bit about that?
[00:17:56] Emma: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that was the first I did post-college that was kind of involved in conservation. I was trying to figure out what to do next. That would be art related or conservation related. And I was on Rhizome, I think and I was looking at like the opportunities page and I saw this thing for Signal Culture as like a residency. And I was like, what's Signal Culture. At the time that I went, it was based in Owego, New York they've since moved to Colorado. But I think it's sprung out of the Experimental Television Center and it's near Binghamton and Binghamton college has this incredible video department that was like involved in the early media arts scene in America. And so they have this really incredible model where you basically, fill out this little form and you sort of like pitch them, like what you want to do. And I said I want to make a new form of a SS TV. That was what I was working on at the time? This like custom SSTV, which is slow scan television for people who aren't really into how we sent pictures back from the moon. I don't, remember why I was doing this, but one day I was, suddenly seized by this. How did we send video from the moon? I realized that I didn't understand how we had sent photos of the moon landing back in real time I was just like, wait, how did we do that? So I looked it up and there is a form of technology called slow scan television. And it's like a fax where basically it's this, set audio encoding format. So there's a couple different formats in there, popular in different places. They're sort of regional styles, but basically you can send an image by sending a specific order of frequencies over the radio. That's slow scan television. There are dozens of hobbyists and I am one of them and yeah, it has a really niche community online. It's one of those things where there's like a lot of papers actually that are like really helpful and explaining how they work. I went down this rabbit hole and I was like, Ooh, I'm going to do an art thing where I make my own version of it because if you ever listened to slow scan audio, it sounds like you are murdering a computer. Like it's awful, it's worse than a fax. It's, the worst series of sounds that you can make a machine make. It sounds awful. So I was like, oh, I'll make one. That will be sort of like arty and like, sound not terrible. And that was the project I pitched them on. And then they got back to me and they were like, based on your background and like you're talking about sort of hardware stuff. Why don't you come as like a toolmaker. They had two residencies at the time. One was an artist and one was a toolmaker and. You're in the same building, like the way that it was set up when I went was basically heaven it was like this weird little apartment building in Owego that had like three floors and the top floor was like a kitchen and their library. And then the other two floors, both had bedrooms and like bathrooms and a work area. You know, it was free. You just had to get there and I stayed there for two weeks and just played around with all of their equipment. The artist studio has all these like weird video cameras and the toolmaker studio has all this weird, like hardware, electronics equipment. And it was great. It was great to just like experiment with stuff for two weeks.
[00:20:48] Ben: This was at the time when you were working at IBM.
[00:20:52] Emma: Yeah. So I took a leave basically. I took an unpaid leave. That sucked because I didn't get paid for two weeks, but yeah, I was working at IBM. I took an unpaid leave. And then while I was there, I got an email about working on net.flag. I think it was professor Engel again. This is kind of how it always goes for me. I'll like, do one thing. It'll go great. I'll, have the come down crash of oh, I'll never work again. I'll never work on anything in conservation again, I'll never work on anything. Interesting. Again, it's just going to be software, for, from here on out, like the boring kind. And then a bunch of good stuff happens. So the Guggenheim, the third and last piece of net art in their collection was net flag. They were like, Hey, do you want to do the same thing basically for this new piece? Which had the same problems. It was a piece of work made in like, I think 2001 that was basically made entirely of Java Applets it was made by mark Napier and it was dead. Cause it at this point Java Applets were all dead. So then I was doing that also while I worked at IBM. I sort of always keep my day job. I got hired as a data scientist out of college, that was my big win. In that my mom was like super proud of me for that, because like at the time data science was this new thing, and nobody really knew exactly how much education you needed to call yourself one, but they knew that it was important and they wanted them. So I sort of forced IBM, I was like you know, I did your special fancy boy internship now hire me officially put it down as a data scientist, because I thought that that would basically make it easier for me to get other jobs. I also thought it was slightly more interesting work than like just doing like backend stuff. Cause that was sort of what I've been trained to do. But yeah, what I mostly did at IBM was data pipeline maintenance, and that's also mostly what I do at artsy. I just, I do data pipelines. I love conservation work, but it's extremely in my experience anyway, like contract based. So there's these like big lapses between, you know, I kept my day job and I started working on net.flag I loved net.flag the high of Brandon, I don't think I'll ever quite get that back again. It was like smaller piece, because Brandon was this enormous piece and so net.flag was easier, I think in a lot of ways for me. And it was also easier because I'd just, I'd been a programmer for longer at that point. And so I knew how code worked better. But I did it all basically remotely. I would call in weekly and be like, Hey, here's what I made. You know, check the repo. And it came together kind of slowly, but it was really fun. And it was really interesting to do you know, there's usually an artist chat in these sort of projects where you're like, Hey, what were you thinking about? Why did you choose this? What was your thinking behind this? And it was really interesting to talk to him because he just, you know, he's a different person. He had a different approach and, artistic practice than Shu Lea it had. One of the sort of like technical things that I still think about was that like, there was this big debate about whether we should try to recreate the, like way that Java applets had sort of unintentionally pixelated the corners of circles and like different shapes this sort of like emulation versus like just make it work again. It was a really fun project. It was sort of like a big boost to my hope that I would be like, okay, like, yeah, every couple of years, somebody is going to hire me for something. Probably.
[00:24:05] Ben: I think that you have a really unique experience, just looking at the field of time-based media conservation, you're one of the few people who's truly a professional software developer, you know, you've worked in like big companies and startups doing coding, you know, and software. but you've also worked on some very, very interesting conservation projects with major leaders in the field. I would imagine this gives you a pretty unique perspective. you know, As somebody who operates in both of these spaces, what do you think conservation doesn't quite get yet about code, in terms of its conservation and in your view, are there ways that the field could improve.
[00:24:48] Emma: I think the thing that I would like to see more of just like in general in culture everywhere is sort of like a demystification of code. I think people still tend to be in awe of it or afraid of it, or like this is this highly specialized skill that I could never learn. And I just personally don't think that's true. It's a skill, you know but I think pretty much anybody could learn at least to read a bit of code if they were interested in it. And I think that attitude prevents other people from, doing their own analysis or like doing their own sort of questioning and like getting into it. Personally I like to go at like a really low level, so like, I would love to read a paper, for example, that's just somebody being like, In this 2002 work, the artist on line 76, creates a for-loop with this variable. I would be really interested in reading more about how artists make those choices and how they view it as relevant to their work. There is writing about that like Joanna Phillips in Deena Engel, have written about code as language and like they have some really incredible papers about how it is an artistic choice and is an artistic practice. And I think I'd, like to hear more from artists who work in it. And also just from viewers, like maybe I look at this line of code and I come to this one conclusion, but it's mutable, you know, somebody else who's able to read code might make a different interpretation. So I guess I just want more eyes, more eyes on code.
[00:26:17] Ben: That's so astute. I definitely agree and I think that there is this maybe mistaken impression that one needs to quote unquote, learn to code, to understand code, which I don't think is necessarily the case. Per se so if you had any advice for either aspiring time-based media art conservators, or conservators that are listening to this show who, you know, might have some software based art works in their collection. If they wanted to be able to look at the code and just maybe understand on some basic levels, logically what something is doing, what do you think is a good way to start building that skill?
[00:26:52] Emma: So I'm gonna just maybe give the example of what I did on the most recent thing I worked on, which was we were working on Tall Ships recently together. You asked me to look at the source code. So I got the code and the first thing I did was sort of read through it. And if you're a conservator who doesn't know any code, I think it's still valuable to do this because it's a piece of writing. You can get a sort of feel for it, even if you don't necessarily understand everything that's happening. And also, at a granular level, most of what code is, is sort of this basic Boolean logic of if this happens, then this for how many times do this. And so that sort of thing you can sort of just look up some basic intros to like boolean logic. And those are basically the underpinnings of all code languages. You know, it's like those five sort of like loops, which just tell you how long to do anything. And then these, if else, statements which are, just basic logic questions. So if you have those down, I think reading through the code itself can be really helpful. And once I read through it I hadn't worked in C in a while. So I pulled up a repl which is like a thing that exists for basically every language. What it means is like this interactive console on the web. So you can Google like C repl and it'll basically allow you to put in a chunk of code and just execute it in the browser and see the outcome. So if I couldn't remember, exactly how something would work if I was staring at this, if else, block, and I was like, I don't get it. What is this? What's actually happening in the switch case. There's so many things I don't understand. I would just run the code. So I would just run these snippets of code and be like, oh, okay. When the variable goes in, You know, with this value, it comes out with this value. Okay. Okay. That's how that works. And then I would make a note of it. Also like you can get pretty far with emulators. I was able to actually find a Borland C++ emulator that I ran in a windows box that was able to run the opening screen of Tall Ships. Cause I'm kind of a visual person. So I was like, okay, this is what it looks like. Okay. This makes sense. And this is how Borland C is compiled. Okay. I guess my big piece of advice is learn the sort of basic, logic stuff. But then also just see how much of the code you can run and then break it, make a copy of it and then break it. Cause that's really the best way to see, okay. You know, like I put the variable. With this value, it comes out with this value. Okay. What if I take out this whole chunk of code? What happens? Read the code. It's fun.
[00:29:23] Ben: So if there are any software developers listening to the show who are interested in, you know, working on conservation projects, do you have any advice for them?
[00:29:33] Emma: Oh, yikes. Be at the right place at the right time. It's a tough field I don't think that I would have been able to get into it, post-college if I hadn't had already done something and had something to point to and been able to be like, you remember me? You remember me from that thing, right? So I guess just be like absolutely shameless in like emailing people and being like, would you like help? Would you like me to do this thing for you? That I'm pretty sure I can do. And good luck. I mean, Yeah. It's a really niche field, which I think makes it more difficult to get into.
[00:30:04] Ben: So Emma Dixon, what is coming next for you?
[00:30:08] Emma: Check out my TikTok. I am helping ShuLea with the translation of her Expand piece. She's doing a Ferral File exhibition so I'm helping with that, in my spare time, I'm like going through her backlog and being like, what do we have on this? Do we have any record of this? What's the Internet Archive like that we can pull? Can I make a work of this? That's sort of in the background right now.
[00:30:30] Ben: Well, Emma Dixon, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was so great to chat with you.
[00:30:35] Emma: It was great to talk to you, Ben.
[00:30:36] Ben: And thank you, dear listener for joining us for this week's show. If you liked what you heard, I hope you'll help us continue building this little community of people that tune in each week by sharing the episode with a friend. You can find the show notes and full transcript artandobsolescence.com and as well, you can find clips and highlights on Twitter and Instagram @artobsolescence. Have a great week my friends, my name is Ben Fino-Radin, and this has been Art and Obsolescence.